| |  Re: Alinghi VX40 capsize today
[Re: Darryn]
#144444
06/02/08 06:28 PM 06/02/08 06:28 PM |
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UK Cheshirecatman 
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I ask because my initial instinct is always to head up when a gust hits or if I get too buried (sort of what holmatro did). Since I'm trying to train myself to bear away before heading up, I'm sitting here trying to rationalize in my brain why holmatro survived when it seems that they shouldn't have.
Holmatro survived when they dumped mainsheet as their cat rounded up when they lost rudder authority, watch their leach in the second video. "They were somehow able to avoid capsizing and we did not unfortunately." Ed Baird SOMEHOW Ed got to steer a fast catamaran without learning the basics. Darryn Mozzie 1782 Holmatro's hull was level before it headed up. It is not like it broached. The boats were just not sailing that low when the gust hit. Look at the course Oman Sail takes from the mark. Holmatro's escape was a SECOND action (after the boat accelerated) and it worked. If Andreas Hagara was on Holmatro's helm he is no rookie catman. Cheshirecatman | | | Re: Alinghi VX40 capsize today
[Re: bvining]
#144445
06/02/08 07:30 PM 06/02/08 07:30 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida. Timbo
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Sebring, Florida. | Bill, I think it turtled so fast because there were 5 guys, at about 200 lbs. each, sitting on the high hull instead of getting OFF the high hull ASAP.
Even without them sitting on the hull the gust was pushing on the tramp forcing the mast down, but 5 guys on the high hull sure didn't help.
Blade F16
#777
| | | Re: Alinghi VX40 capsize today
[Re: blockp]
#144446
06/02/08 07:37 PM 06/02/08 07:37 PM |
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
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Asuncion, Paraguay | Can someone explain the capsize (and the save) a little better... This is how I see it: Alinghi pumped to turn downwind, but not all the way. After the rudders were back in the water, they started to turn upwind, but not all the way once again. Maybe they just wanted to return to the previous heading. I guess they thought the gust was over. Holmatro did about the same: bore away to avoid the pitchpole and turned upwind after control was regained. The upwind turn was probably in response to Alinghi's. I believe both upwind turns were tactical, not for depowering. The difference is that Holmatro did not stop turning at their previous heading like Alinghi did. For some reason they decided to keep turning upwind. This last (and critical) decision may have been for tactical reasons or for protection, but whatever the initial reason, it became a depowering manouver in the end. Holmastro may have dumped the main as well, but I can't see this so clearly. It is interesting that immediately after Alinghi stopped its upwind turn and held course, Holmatro heeled more than Alinghi for a moment due to different centrifugal forces acting on the boats. I think Alinghi would have survived if the spi wasn't partly unfurled. I'd say two things account for the different outcomes: 1) Holmatro's stronger commitment to luffing. 2) Alinghi's unfurled spi. Quite instructive.
Luiz
| | | Re: Alinghi VX40 capsize today
[Re: Mike Hill]
#144451
06/03/08 06:54 AM 06/03/08 06:54 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | Well I'll be the odd man out on this one. These guys are sailing these boats everyday. It looked pretty sporty out there that day. I've made a few mistakes myself and went swimming as a result. How many of you can say you haven't done the same? Mine wasn't caught on video and I don't break my mast every time luckily.
If you are pushing it to the limit in these races you are going to go over sometimes. If you don't you aren't pushing it to the limit.
I know a few of these sailors and I have nothing but the utmost respect for them. They are quality individuals. Exceedingly smart. And winners of many Nationals/Worlds events. How many of you can say that? The ones I know give back to the sailing community with all they can in knowledge and lending their time.
So to armchair quarterback that capsize is pretty much childish. I know I've done the exact same thing a few times. Out on a reach and decide to head down and realize you are going to bite it so you attempt a last second head up hoping to pull off a miracle. I've pulled it out a few times too. I know I've been on that reach knowing if I get hit by anything extreme it's going to be too late as I can't head off or up quick enough and you can't dump any more sail as you've dumped it all.
Feces happens,
Mike Hill
N20 #1005 Criminy - how do you learn if you don't dissect some great footage. Relax.
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: Alinghi VX40 capsize today
[Re: macca]
#144452
06/03/08 07:47 AM 06/03/08 07:47 AM |
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Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Sebring, Florida. | Macca, why does the boat lose steerage in a bear away, are the rudders too short? Can they add longer rudders? Or is it something else? In the bigger picture of world wide cat acceptance, I am glad to see these big cats racing like this, I wish we could get a fleet here in the States but I don't think the TP52 types want to get wet. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Blade F16
#777
| | | Re: Alinghi VX40 capsize today
[Re: Timbo]
#144453
06/03/08 11:57 AM 06/03/08 11:57 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Carpal Tunnel
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Naples, FL | I guess you'd have to find deep water, too. If the mast is 62 feet high and goes turtle....
Jay
| | | Re: Alinghi VX40 capsize today
[Re: Timbo]
#144454
06/03/08 12:15 PM 06/03/08 12:15 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC Tornado
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Vancouver, BC | If VX40's are anything near as difficult to steer as Afterburner...then it's easy to see why you have very few options when things go south. 'Burner is 52' long and much heavier than a vx40...but the blades are big. She steers a bit like a sow and takes a long time to respond...not like a beach cat at all. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/uploads/images/blade-runner/bladerunner2.jpg) Macca, why does the boat lose steerage in a bear away, are the rudders too short? Can they add longer rudders? Or is it something else? In the bigger picture of world wide cat acceptance, I am glad to see these big cats racing like this, I wish we could get a fleet here in the States but I don't think the TP52 types want to get wet. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
| | | Re: Alinghi VX40 capsize today
[Re: Tornado]
#144455
06/03/08 01:16 PM 06/03/08 01:16 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001
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Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Carpal Tunnel
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Naples, FL | but does she react as quickly (or as harshly) to gusts like a beachcat and/or VX40?
With the extra weight, I guess it would just look more slow-motion but the result would be the same....
Jay
| | | Re: Alinghi VX40 capsize today
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#144456
06/03/08 03:49 PM 06/03/08 03:49 PM |
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 134
Gulf Coast/FWB Strategery
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Gulf Coast/FWB | I loved reading this thread - reminds me of this famous Japanese movie (the name of which of course escapes me), where a murder is seen through the eyes of several participants/witnesses. Each perspective is different, sort of like this thread.
I don't know why he flipped it, but I do know that it's generating more attention for sailing around the non-sailing world...and as you all know - there's no such thing as bad press.
In the words of Randy Smyth (whom I hope to see kicking butt out there shortly), it's only water...
Regards,
C.
| | | Re: Alinghi VX40 capsize today
[Re: Strategery]
#144457
06/03/08 03:53 PM 06/03/08 03:53 PM |
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV Rhino1302
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Reno NV | I loved reading this thread - reminds me of this famous Japanese movie (the name of which of course escapes me), where a murder is seen through the eyes of several participants/witnesses. Each perspective is different, sort of like this thread. Rashomon | | | Re: Alinghi VX40 capsize today
[Re: Strategery]
#144458
06/03/08 07:44 PM 06/03/08 07:44 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina |
In the words of Randy Smyth (whom I hope to see kicking butt out there shortly), it's only water...
Ohhh...that's gooood. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jake Kohl
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