Harry, I mostly agree with your assessment. I do question how likely it is that a starboard tacker carry themselves outside of the zone while doing their gybe - if they did that, they really screwed up the manuever.

If I were the port boat in this situation and the starboard boat is coming in tight to the mark - it's a no brainer. Slow down a little, let him in, and jump on top of him leaving the mark. There's no way somebody is going to gybe,drop,and round up without a wide ugly rounding.

Jake,

EXACT-TA-MUNDO!!!!!

I totally agree!!!!

Though, in my research to these rules changes I had someone say "... the starboard boat has "Starboard Tack" rights, also "Inside Overlap" rights and can take as much room as they like (or wish). Then I realized what the new line added to Rule 18.2c actually meant and does. This new addition means that there is a limit/maximum to the "room" that the starboard tacker can claim/use ... and it is based on a actual physical measurement that sets the size of the "zone". If the starboard tack boat does screw up the rounding and goes wide, the rules now allow the port tack boat to gain rights for an "inside overlap". Before once the Starboard Tack boat established their inside overlap rights, the "Port Tack" couldn't gain rights to an inside overlap no matter how wide "Starboard" went ... and if the Port Tack tried, if the "Starboard Tack" could just tap the "Port Tack" boat the "Starboard Tack" could protest the "Port Tack" boat for failure to leave room for Starboard" an "Inside Overlap" ... or sail her "Proper Course" ... or make a "tactical rounding" ... or make a seamanshiply rounding.

All the applicable rules were defined but unmeasurable definitions ... now there will be a measurement to base the rule on.

So if a "starboard tack" boat wants to attempt this legal but risky tactic ... they better bring their "A Game" because if they screw it up they will end up on the outside w/ everyone else have "Inside Overlap" rights ... eating alot of dirty air .....

Upon studing these new rules I (now)think this is actually an improvement

Race SMART

Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail SAFE
Harry Murphey

Agreed, also, if the port boats do not give room and the stbd boat bails out, IMO they have a VERY strong position in the protest room. As they WOULD have gone for it if there was room; by bailing out they state there was NOT room.

Going to be difficult for a port boat to argue there was room when the stbd boat(s) bail out!

It's a very clever change; once people fully understand the implications

Scoob,

You are quite correct .... I hadn't though the scenerio through completely to that point.

It is obvious the decision to "drive/dive" in there is up to "Starboard" ..... and if they are not confident of the room given them is sufficent ...

I've only been protested once ... it was years ago ... a group of us rounded "C" Mark the lead boat went wide and tacked over onto Starb ... the rest of us were overlapped on Port ... I was the inside boat and the (now) starboard boat hit my rudder as I passed/crossed in front of him .... in the "Room" I stated my case that the only option I had was for me to tack immidiately onto starboard and HIT the Port Tack boat to my left/port .... I was told by the judges ... Yes, that is what you had to do "... hit the other boat so you could protest them ...." That was NUTS ... I had to T-Bone another boat and most likely damage my boat just to prove I had nowheres to go ....

They changed the rules shortly after that .... you must give room and time to "Keep Clear" .... and even though you may have rights, "you must avoid collisions"

This rule change will give the starboard tack boat an "Option" ... other then driving in and colliding to provide the proof that there wasn't enough room ....

RACE SMART

Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail SAFE
Harry Murphey

I don't think this gives the starboard boat any more options - it's still the same "I may have room" as your coming into the mark and you all know that at Mach 10 with the kite up, there is very little time for a decision on an ~iffy~ situation. The rule is ~iffy~ and I'm not a fan.

In the mark rounding you cited, you don't have to hit the boat that is keeping you from coming up (you have to avoid contact at all costs) but you do have to protest him for not allowing you to yield right-of-way.

Jake,

My point is that it gives Stbd LESS options. You can no longer pile in and expect to either GET room, or get exonnerated at the protest if you end up bumping, you (the stbd) will get DQS for not bailing out and the boat that does not give room will also get DSQ.

The rule now means that the stbd boat has to DECIDE that there will not be room and then bail out and protest, instead of piling in and then getting exonnerated if collisions occur.

The rule (IMO) has been designed to reduce collisions between stbd boats claiming room and port boats that cannot (or will not) give it, and as a result, more time will be spent in the room.

No bearing on the PC's decision; however, the poor starboard tacker had to come up with a bunch of "play dough." That hearing had a huge impact on his pocket book.

Bert

Holey cow; he was not insured?

Jake and Scoobie,

Now my one appearence in "The Room" it was approximently 1988 (maybe) ... those were the days of the "Instant Tack/Gybe" , all you had to do was slam the boat around and grab the boom and WHOMP it over and scream STARBOARD ... you DID NOT have to leave time or room to "Keep Clear"....so I didn't feel that it was right that w/ three boats overlaping me on my port side, that a boat just in front of me to my starboard could slam his boat around scream Starboard and sheet in ... expecting four boats to instantaniously to tack also. It made for some really VICIOUS racing .... and to be told you have to hit someone else, possible damaging your boat just to provide proof for a protest was just stupid. (Let's just say I did tack over and hit the other boat and put a hole in my boat as that's what usually happens when a TheMightyHobie18 T-Bones another boat ... I'm then having to put my boat on the trailer and going home to fix it ....

What this will do is cause the decision to drive in to be made earlier, "Go" or "No Go" ..... Starboard gets to make the call, NOT Port .... so yes there could be more protests intitially. And are protests a bad thing? ... if it prevents just one injury or boats from being damaged it will be a GOOD thing. But it will take EDUCATION!!!

The first time a "Starboard Tack" boat protests a Port tack boat under this rule ... and the Protest Committee asks a simple Yes or No question of the "Starboard Tack" boat ... "did you feel that the Port Tack boats left you enough room to sail your proper course to round the mark?"

If the "starboard tack boat replies "No", then the protest committee should find/rule that the Port Tack boat(s) violated Rule 18.2b and Rule 18.4

And because of the change to Rule 18.2c there is a "measurable" space ... so let's say there is a Mark Boat there w/ observers that say "No" the two boat length circle was full w/ port tack boats ... then the ruling most definately should go to the starboard tack boat.

But let's say the observers on the Mark Boat say the two boat length circle was clear and the Port tack boats were staying outside that circle then the ruling should be for the Port Tack boats and against the Starboard Tack boat

Let say there are multiple starboard tack boats also ... at some point the outside starboard boat will pass outside the "zone". This means that this boat has NO "Inside Overlap Rights" and must pass clear through the path of the oncoming Port Tack boats to the outside because if they tack they will not leave the Port Tack boats ample time and opportunity to "Keep Clear"

Remember Port Tack has options too ... the first is to hail the boats to leeward overlaped on them ... "I have a Starboard Tack boat w/ an inside overlap, I WILL need room and I intend to round just at the outside of the "zone" according to Rule 18.2c ...secondly, the inside boat can (and should) foot down to the point that they "rub/tap the boat to their leeward {I know "No Contact" but as a Judge I would rule that contact as incidental and find that the outside boat actually caused the contact by not leaving enough room for the "Inside Overlap"}... and thirdly, if they are Hailed by Starboard "Protest" then Port just goes and does their pentalty turns .... so it doesn't have to end up "In the Room"

The real issue is that everyone wants to "push" the envelope just a little too far w/ each unwilling "to give alittle bit". At our amatuer level is racing sailboats a issue of life and death ... is there large amounts of prize money on the line ....

So once it becomes clear that Starboard Tack gets to set the terms and will (most likely) win the protest, Port tack boats WILL then leave enough room so it is CLEAR/OBVIOUS that there is enough room no matter how competative they are or how big their egos' are.

And if you think that this means that everyone will now come in on starboard all we have to remember is your point Jake it's almost impossible to come in on starboard tack then gybe, dowse, round the mark w/o doing a ugly wide rounding ...resulting in being "rolled" by a Port Tack boat that rounds inside of Starboard and then slowly grinds past

Harry Murphey

Scoob, I see what you're saying and I'm beginning to agree to this line of thought. I personally have enjoyed the advantage of coming into a c-mark on starboard ... though I usually try to line up the crossing to take place just outside the zone. Nothing has changed in that respect and it is, in fact, more incentive to make that crossing just outside the zone rather than at the gate where the pile-up is waiting.

I agree now - carry on.

So at a gate, with a 3-BL circle around each buoy, it's quite possible the two zones will overlap each other. Couple that with not knowing which gate a particular boat is ultimately going to round...and I think I'll need an Advil!


I wonder if anyone considered a time-based zone definition...something like "within 15 seconds of the mark". This way boats of all different speeds, lengths have the similar times to make rounding preparations.

No matter how many lengths are required, if the zones ever overlap, immediately board the signal boat and throw the PRO in the water.

Mike

Exactly!

Exactly x 2

It seems to me the rule assumes this overlap between each mark. The term "gate" is not defined. Rule 28.1.c refers to passing "between the Marks".

"It seems to me the rule assumes this overlap between each mark. The term "gate" is not defined. Rule 28.1.c refers to passing "between the Marks"."

Guys, you're trying way too hard to find a problem here. I'm a certified RO, and have enough on-water experience and have been to enough seminars to tell you that, up to and including Olympic and A-Cup ROs and judges (I've worked with several of each), overlapping zones at gates is NOT acceptable.

Mike

So for a 20 ft boat, you'd get a 60 ft zone around each mark...thus 120 ft minimum between the marks. I've certainly sailed races where the whole gate is only about 3 BL's long.

I guess I'm more concerned about what happens if our STRB boat is coming in near the midpoint of the gate, PORT boat(s) can't know for sure which way he's going to go through the gate. If he wants to go left (looking down course), they need to make room for his gybe; if he wants to go right, they need to make room for his harden up. Until it becomes clear which, the port boats will have a hard time planning ahead.
This is no different for the '08 rules...just things get more complex trying to discern if strb goes out of a zone thus lossing rights to port boats....can't strb just claim to be going to the other mark and still have rights??

If you are sailing thru gates this size; shoot the RO and get a decent one.

Just FYI - the gates that PU and I were setting for you at the '07 Tornado NA's were 8 BL wide, minimum.

Kewl! Which of the new rules allow for RO assassination?