Hi,

On the last regatta I oversailed the upwind mark because I wasn't sure if I could tack or not. I've checked the rules on this particular situation but it still isn't clear to me.... Anyone can help?

Here's the situation:

We were sailing upwind on port tack with an F18 behind us (about 5 boatlengths). The F18 was also sailing about 1 boatlength higher. We were both double trapping.

At a certain moment we had the feeling we had to tack if we didn't want to oversail the mark, but the F18 kept on sailing and we didn't dare to tack. Eventually when the F18 and we tacked we had oversailed the mark.

Now, could we tack if we:
1) just announced the tack
2) announced the tack and made sure we were on the other tack by the time the F18 was there.
Is it enough that the sails are on the other tack or should we be going forward already?
3)announced the tack but were still tacking by the time the F18 was there?

I'm pretty sure 3 isn't an option, but what about the 2 others?

Regards,
Gill

As long as you could complete your tack; you can tack.

Wilder! I'm sure you meant that he could tack as long as he didn't break RRS 15: When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boat’s actions.

Go for your layline and sail your proper course. It is good to announce your tack - they're expecting you to do it. They will take all the room you give them, but they almost certainly recognize it as a gift.

Yeah of course that would be obvious, you never want to tack and put yourself into a situation where a collision is eminent. In his initial post he says 5 boat lengths, imo that is plenty of room.

Double trapped? I'm not sure he felt there was enough room and he overstood because he wasn't sure of the rules. Don't let yourself be a marshmallow for someone who knows the rules better than you. That F18 probably beat him to the mark.

John,

In my option I would have been right in front of the F18 after the tack (meaning he would have to tack too or go behind my back -> 1 full boatlength, which seemed difficult to me).
So IMO the F18 would not have had room enough to keep clear. Meaning I couldn't tack.

However I think you're saying the opposite John.

btw we got to the top mark in front of them ;-)

Gill

If as per above you can tack and the other boat(s) have time and room as per above then you can do it.

YOu can aslo make it clear you are going to tack; as they are close, you can also pinch for a few seconds and they will then get the picture too.

With F16's they tack so quickly, you should be aiming for 10 seconds or below for wire to wire, so unless they are real close, it should not be a problem.

Can someone figure out how many seconds it would take the F18 to cover five boat lengths, if they are going, say, 15 mph?

15 knots = 25 feet per second. Five boatlengths = 90 feet.

About four seconds.

HOWEVER - I'd bet that F18 was anticipating the tack. They had no rights as the clear-astern boat on port. A hail from the F16 gives the F18 plenty of opportunity to keep clear as the F16 sails her proper course by tacking for the mark. The fact that the F16 made it to the mark first indicates to me that all is right with the universe - good job, Gill.

I came up with 4 seconds, too. So in that 4 seconds the F16 is only going to be halfway through its tack. If I were on the smaller, more fragile boat, I don't know if I would have the courage to "bet" that:

No. 1, the F18 knows the rules
No. 2, that the F18 is anticipating that you are going to tack.
No. 3, the F18 has the time, room or crew reactions to make and execute the decision to avoid me (and how) in that period of time.

I wouldn't put my boat, and maybe my life, on the line based on assumptions.

Didn't this situation used to be called tacking too close?

Also, what if the boat behind and to windward was a Hobie 16 instead of an F18? The Hobie 16 would not even be thinking about tacking yet because he has not yet reached his layline. It might not occur to him that the F16 needs to tack.

I know, I know -- I am probably overthinking this.

Tactically, you should have thought it out quite a bit sooner. Two things you could have done.
1) Pinched up a bit way before the layline. This would backwind the boat on your hip and they would have fallen lower. Then you would have been free to tack on your own layline call.
2) Drive off until you have enough room to make the tack to starboard without the possibility of them calling you for tacking too close.
Rick

Let's call your boat A (ahead), and the other boat B (behind) and analyze the situation in steps (which is how I like to walk through the rules during a protest hearing).

Step 1:
A is clear ahead and to leeward of B. B is obligated to keep clear of A under RRS 12 (on the same tack, not overlapped).

Step 2: A tacks. From the moment A passes head-to-wind, until she is on a close-hauled course, A is obligated to keep clear of B under RRS 13 (while tacking).

Step 3: A completes her tack. A is now on starbaord tack and B on port tack. B is obligated to keep clear of A under RRS 10 (on opposite tacks). A is obligated to initially give B room to keep clear under RRS 15 (acquiring right-of-way).

At all times, both A and B are required to avoid contact under RRS 14 (avoiding contact).

Now, if B has to take avoiding action during step 2, then A breaks rule 13. If B does not have enough time keep clear in a seamanlike way after A completes her tack (e.g., she crash-tacks or makes contact), then A breaks rule 15.

Note that B does not have to anticipate A's actions at any time. A may hail that she's tacking, but it's her actions that count. After A completes her tack, she must give B enough time to assess the situation, choose a course of action, and execute it in a seamanlike way.

It may seem counter-intuitive, but this is one of those situations where the give-way boat contols the right-of-way boat's action. Given the situation you were in, you did the right thing under the rules and let the F18 drive you past the layline.

As Rick pointed out, this is a tactical situation you want to anticipate and avoid. Some of the options you could have employed earlier are:
1) pinch up in front of the astern boat, so you are able to tack when you want,
2) foot away, so there is enough space between boats for the other to keep clear after you tack,
3) come in to the mark on the port-tack layline and scrape the astern boat off around the mark.

Of course, there are potential difficulties with each option. If you pinch up, the astern boat is likely to pinch up as well. If you foot off, the astern boat may foot too. If you approach the windward mark on the port layline, you may run afoul of other boats rounding the mark.

Regards,
Eric

John,

Proper course plays NO part in this situation.

F16 needs to COMPLETE the tack before the F18 needs to take avoiding action in order to "tack at will".

As stated by others, best bet is to either pinch up to drive the other boat away - it will not take much to force them away, or drive them low (by backwind of YOUR sail) more to make the "tack and gain rights" a sure thing; OR drive a little to leeward by footing a little to create more time to make sure the tack is complete and so rights are gained with time to FORCE the F18 to duck or tack.

It is best to anticipate this happening and try and make the other boat tack away before YOU want to tack.

Got myself in this fix a few times;

Also got the knack of sitting up in the trapeze, both hands on hips [Jam the tiller with your back foot] and glare at the trailing skipper until he really gets the message that you don't want him pushing you about!

Hi Simon -

Agree that the proper course rule doesn't apply - only meant to imply that the F18 should be expecting the F16 to tack, as her course is to the mark. I would hate to be the F18 in that situation, actually, knowing that in the breeze the F16 can probably sail a higher line and I'd need to get past their layline to get to my own, depending upon the distance to the mark. I'm not a short-tacker.

Hmm... wisecracks, anyone?

Funny, I was in the exact opposite situation last Wednesday: A 29er was in front of me, I was a couple of boat length behind and to windward. But my layline is further than their layline as a 29er points better than my Stealth.

I saw the skipper looking at me, looking at the mark, finally realizing he was screwed and that he would have to go further, to my layline.

I took pity of him, shouted "You tack, I'll avoid you". He said thank you then tacked, I ducked his stern, tacked 10 boat length further and beat them to the mark. It is a far better way of proceeding IMHO.

BTW, they used their huge masthead spi to pass me again on the way to the side mark, but on the hotter reach to the finish line I regained on them, cut their wind and beat them by a mere second. I'm nice, but not that nice.

I don't get it. ???

no, no , no. Once you start tacking you must keep clear and give other boats room to keep clear. You have started tacking once you go past head to wind. In this situation the F18 only has to "start" taking avoiding action once the F16 tack is complete, which is when the boat is pointing in the direction of a close-hauled course on the new tack. 1 boat length to windward and 5 astern isn't enough room in my opinion to complete a tack without the F18 having to start avoiding before you have completed the tack.

In this situation, the best thing to do tactically is to pinch early and climb above the F18 to make room for yourself to tack. Hopefully the F18 doesn't follow you up maintaining their tactical hold over you.

Rules wise though, if you don't want to continue too far past the layline, you are allowed to luff, due to proper course limitations, but tacking in this situation is asking for trouble.

I hope you mean 49er!!!

Forgot that other option, if the F18 calls "you tack" or similar in this situation, they have accepted responsibility to avoid you.