I unintentionally caused an off-topic diversion in a thread about the Hobie Fox, which led to a very useful exchange with Mark Schneider about why the Nacra 20 is popular in the Chesapeake Bay, apparently due to its tall mast and big sail area, which is good for the lighter winds on the Bay.

So as not to disrupt the above thread any further, I thought I should start a separate thread about the various options for sailing beach cats in the Chesapeake Bay area.

Here are some excerpts to get the discussion started...

Mark: I had a great time at the WRSC Spring Regatta last weekend. Volunteering on the RC was an excellent first-time experience and I was quite impressed by the A-cats, Nacra 20s, and 505 skiffs.

Although I loved WRSC and am tempted to join, being apparently restricted to two very high-tech catamaran classes (A-cat and Nacra 20) would be somewhat of a bummer. So I definitely need to investigate the open-class and Hobie events in the area before making any decisions.

I won't be able to make it to Gunpowder for a full day or overnight. But I may be able to come up for a few hours to check out the setup and say hello. What do you think would be the best day (Sat or Sun) and time (morning, afternoon) to see some racing and meet some Hobie sailors?

Thanks for any additional insight!

Saturday afternoon.... It's a hobie regatta... early starts violates the constitution! not to mention Hobie Fleet 54 has a great **** party on saturday at 5.... you control the rum or tequilla.

Thanks, Mark. Will try to come check it out.

And sorry I missed you at the Spring Regatta. After 5 hours on the RC boat focusing on sail numbers for 4 classes x 5 races (4 for the Contenders), I didn't have the energy to stick around very late on land. But checking the results, sure enough, you are there in 9th place in what seemed like a very competitive A-cat fleet. I mean, Tony Arends was there...

Where there no F16's at WRSC ?

Or where the guys down in Florida for the GYC event ?

I seem to remember the F16's growing as a class on the chesapeake. Slowly but surely. The F16 would surely be a good third option between F18, I-20 and A-cat. They seem to be doing very well among these in the WRCRA race series.

http://wrcraorg.ntitemp.com/racerslt.html#SpringSummer
http://wrcraorg.ntitemp.com/racerslt.html#SummerFall
http://wrcraorg.ntitemp.com/racerslt.html#FrostBite


Interestingly enough it proofs that mast and hull length is less of a factor some make out to be ! It is the smallest boat in the series I-20, F18, A-cat but races them as good as first in anyway !


Wouter

Afircat,

Thanks for doing RC Duty. That is very kind of you. Saturday was without a doubt the nicest day of sailing I have seen on the Bay in my 9 years of racing here. A steadily building breeze with the occasional increases in pressure combined with very little wave action. Perfect! Three of us N20s were having very close racing with passing taking place upwind, downwind, at marks, and at the finish. Not passes that are 10 boats lengths apart, I mean passes within a boat length or less. Thanks again for doing RC!

I may be a little biased with the following:

Why is the N20 popular on the bay? It is a good light air boat. It’s a good heavy air boat. It is fairly easy to depower. It is relatively easy to sail fast; and yet to find speed advantage over others is still an interesting challenge. It does buoy racing really well. It can vie for line honors with the big negative PHRF monos in a 30 miles distance race even giving them a 10 minutes head start and the race is only 2.5 hours or so long. It can sail upwind with a 66’ “Upwind Sled”. The use of the words “sail” and “with” in the last sentence was used to be polite. (The words “spank” or “crush” could be substituted for a more accurate description however regrettable less “PC”).

This might be the biggest reason: It can handle a large range of crew weights well. If you look at our Fleet, we range in weight from 180 to say 250’ish (5’9” to 6’2”). That puts total crew weight in the 370 to 435 range. We are not fat people, just bigger than the cat sailors in other fleets. Before I digress too far with this, did I mention the N20s bows?

Upon my first glace at the N20 my attention was drawn to the plumb bow and the height and shape of the bow and the combined shear of the hull. Having started racing in a Thistle, I really like the plumb bow (***). Having owned and raced a H16 then a Nacra 6.0 the shape of the bow was frankly not attractive. After being out in some sizable waves it will probably grow on you like it did me. I can’t even walk by the bows without giving them a little shall we say pat-on-the-head and a “thank you, thank you, your unbelievable” being uttered.

Something important to me and maybe to you is it will handle 6 or so kids with four hanging from the traps and towing two more in an inflatable.

To borrow from Keith, your mileage may vary.

(***) Plumb bow will eat butt of A-cat without taking a scratch.

You talk to your boat too? I do the same. Kinda like days of thunder when Robert Duvall is talking to the car in the barn.

Africat,
I solved your dilemma by getting both an A-cat and an N-20. I'm new to the A, but have put thousands of miles on my 20 and love it. It is a true workhorse/race car in the cat world. Lot's of folks will tell you it's a dead or dying boat, but at most regattas I've been to ,they are bringing the same numbers or more than other classes except A-cats( when they want to show).
Thanks for helping out at WRSC, you let us have a really great weekend. Good luck with your decision. The Senegal part throws in an interesting wrinkle,as there will be different popular boats there versus here.
Todd Hart

Last weekend's event was for one design fleets (no open class) and the F-16s do not have the numbers in the area (yet) for fleet status. 3 more active F16s are needed to legitatemently claim fleet status. As of next week, there will be 5 active F-16s at WRSC.

The WRCRA race series is open to all beach cats and the competition is good amoung the currently active sailors/classes (A-Cat/F-16/N20 - throw in a Nacra 6.0NA and ARC-22).

Now I know why you refer to your class as NASCAT (LOL).

Wouter

The Hobie fleet 54 Gunpowder Regatta is this coming weekend about an hour up the bay and the F16's are planning on racing in Open class there.... They just don't like to call their shot and PR it much!

rubbin' racing baby! If you look closely at the Hallie Q you'll find some Gertie green from last year.

To quote a 505 skipper from Saturdays racing: "I can't believe how much power you were displaying" Context: 505 coming upwind on port, two N20 going downwind on port double trapped within a boat length of each other, one defending the other attacking. We both ducked him and it was close. He was cool with our duck just amazed with what was coming at him. I asked him to use his gym voice next time. All I heard was more noise coming from the N20 ahead and to leeward of us, and then my crew "bare off now"! Good Crew! There are several reason NASCAT fits us.;) Hopefully you guys will be in on it next time!

Mark: I'm not going to make it to Gunpowder. Too much family stuff going on right now and not quite ready to camp with the 6 month old.

Chris: The pleasure was mine. I'll be getting in touch to see if anybody can use me as backup crew for Tuesday evenings. Love your comment about six kids on the Nacra 20! Certainly cooler than 6 kids on a Hobie Getaway.

Todd: It's not impossible that I'll go the two-cat route in the long run. But for now, until the move to Senegal and probably until we get back Stateside again, the reasonable solution is probably going to be "no boat" and try to crew a bunch.

Thanks everybody for the excellent discussion!

High tech or not is I suppose a personal choice, but I think the idea that because a boat is more modern that it is more difficult to sail or maintain is not necessarily true.

As already mentioned, the more powerful and modern rigs just give you more options to sail on days when a H16/18 would be almost as boring has sailing with one hull.

Just do it (A, N20 or F16 are really the tickets right now). How about a partnership with someone who isn't getting their boat on the water enough???

Herbie: First, thanks again for connecting me with Peter for RC duty. I've never worked so hard on the water without actually handling any sails. What a blast!

I have nothing against high tech. Quite the opposite! I'm a total gearhead and love anything that uses technology to increase the fun and performance factor. The only Hobie I'm looking at right now is an FX-one, which is kind of like a big A-cat that you can also sail two-up. But I understand I wouldn't be allowed to keep an non-fleet cat at WRSC, right?

Realistically speaking, as I've mentioned above, I shouldn't buy a boat of my own right now and try to ship it across the Atlantic (and back again in 3 years). That would really be too involved. Instead, I need to hook up with boat owners in need of crew. As Chris was leaving last Saturday, he introduced me to another Nacra sailor, who suggested I get on their crew e-mail list. Is there a Nacra-specific distribution list? If so, how can I get on there to see if anybody can use last-minute crew for Tuesday evening cat sailing?

Looking at the rules for joining WRSC, to become a full-fledged member you have to own, outright or as a share, one of the OD fleets that are part of the club. Do I understand that correctly? But during one of the rare breaks on the RC boat, Peter mentioned that there were other options for boat-less membership. So I'll have to investigate that as well.

Finally, do you have somebody in mind when you suggest a "partnership with someone who isn't getting their boat on the water enough?" Buying a share in a boat may be a bit much right now. But it would probably still be a lot more reasonable than buying a whole boat and shipping that overseas.

Sail fast!

-Roland E.

Herbie53

Remember Hi-Tech just means the parts are more expensive and need to be replaced more often to preserve peak performance!!!! Do you know how long the top Tornado sailors use a set of sails for??? A spinnacker is used for (1)Regatta only then replaced.

Roland has a much more complex decision to make then just buying the highest tech boat availible ... he has a famiy to include in his decision.

Roland, when you get a chance come to RockHall Yacht Club (www.rockhallyachtclub) in Rock Hall Md. On June 19,20 &21st we have two different races: Down the River and The Annual One-Design Regatta (2-day). Camping on site, Clubhouse w/ resturant, bar, POOL!!! and most of the WRSC A-Catter's bring their families and attend.

So while I would love a A-Cat I would never try to do the C-100, Down the Bay, Worell, Tybe ... etc, etc, on a A-Cat

BUT I would take my ol' TheMightyHobie18 and start and COMPLETE any of those races ... if fact between my TheMightyHobie18 and P19 I've done the DTB and C100, +15 races ... should we add in the Statue of Liberty races also ???

And the more technical the boat ... the more experienced the crew must be .... Hows that work when you are trying to sail w/ your kids and start them sailing?????

I started sailing/racing w/ my niece when she was 9yrs old on my P19MX and realized it was too much boat for us to controll .... so we re-assembled my TheMightyHobie18 and have been racing her together for the last 4yrs. And I given Megan the "tiller" also during races ..... would you give a 14yr old the tiller to a +20,000 boat??? during a race????

Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/P19MX

Harry,
You left out the really fun stuff,like having to hook a tractor to your lo-tech boat to move it. Also you left out the part about what the sterns of the Hi-tech boats look like. I'll spend a little more effort and cash to go alot faster. And YES I would give the helm of my $20,000 dollar boat to a 14 year old if they were experienced enough to handle it. The Hi-tech boats are actually more forgiving than older dacron powered heavyweights.
Kinda sounds like sour grapes on your part.
Todd

Todd,

Sour Grapes????

We've known each other for +20yrs .... Did I say anything not true????

Robbie replaces his spinnacker after every two day regatta and so does Lovell and Olgeltree so I've been told

Has an A-Cat ever completed a Down the Bay, C100, or Statue of Liberty Race????

How much experience on catmarans did you have before you purchased a 20' speed machine??? I remember a P16 and a P19, with years of racing ... and weren't there some additional cats in there.

Maybe Roland wants a hi-tech boat but shouldn't he learn first the unique lessons of sailing catamarans on a forgiving "tanker" before investing $$$'s in an unforgiving speed machine that requires the replacement of sails and parts more often to stay competitive. Just like you did???

What's starting to annoy me is the attitude that if you are not sailing a $20,000 catamaran you are not worthy .... Last year I was severely cut-off on a leeward/windward crossing stuation when I was the right of way vessel ... but since I was a lowly TheMightyHobie18 and not the A-Cat I had no rights it seems. I had to "bail" radically, teabagging my niece. Next time I just may hold my course and cut that A-Cat in half w/ my TheMightyHobie18 or P19 that I need a tractor to drag around.

There are alot of cat sailors out there that sail BORING H16's/TheMightyHobie18's and other older cats, that are excellent sailors and are having a good time.

It's about selecting the correct boat to get Roland (and his family), started sailing Catamarans, and wanting to keep sailing/racing Cats into the future, while developing his skill set.

It's just like if you knew someone who wants to race cars ... you are not going to put them in a INDY or Formula ONE car to start w/ ... or are you???

An A-Cat is a beautiful sailing machine ... delicate, fragile and must be treated w/ care. A Nacra20 is a big wonderfully strong catamaran that needs TWO experienced crewman to sail properly.

I wouldn't recommend either boat to a "Newbie"


Harry

Afircat,
I sailed out of WRCRA and have a boat I need to part with. Send me a message to my mailbox. And I can discuss further.
Kevin Cook

Roland,

FYI: Mr Kevin Cook is one of the most experienced catamaran sailors and boatbuilders on the Chesapeake Bay !!!! Besure to "pick his brain" throughly ....

His technical knowledge of catamaran sailing and construction methods is far above most of us mere mortals.

I would also ask for a ride on his new Trimaran he completed building last year!!!!!

Harry