In reference to the Alter Cup now under way:

" Originally Posted By: Undecided... DNF - did not go through leward gate apparently.

Technically, RC can't score a boat DNF for a mark rounding error. If the boat acknowledges the error and withdraws voluntarily, she should be scored RAF. Otherwise, someone must protest. If Protest Committee determines that the boat broke rule 28, they will disqualify her and direct RC to score her DSQ.

Of course, the score is the same, so if nobody contests RC's action, the end result doesn't change.

Regards,
Eric"

Is this a good thing? To me it seems a needless complication of the game.

I ask because of your demonstrated expertise in our last rules discussion and the overall positive response across the board.

It is necessary. You don't want Race Committee to start penalizing boats without a hearing for observed rule infractions. The boat is entitled to defend herself in a protest hearing.

Rule A5 states:


So, RC can only penalize a boat for not starting, not finishing, taking a scoring penalty, or retiring. Otherwise they must score her according to her finish position.

If RC witnesses a rule infraction (such as hitting a mark, sailing the course improperly, or crossing a closed finish line), their only option is to protest the boat.

I hope that helps,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

"If RC witnesses a rule infraction (such as hitting a mark, sailing the course improperly, or crossing a closed finish line), their only option is to protest the boat."

There's the missing piece. Thanks!

From the other thread:


Well, actually, I believe that it would be redressable. Take a look at ISAF Case 80 http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/CaseBook20092012-[7029].pdf, which is a nearly identical to this discussion. It states:


In Case 80, RC scored a boat DNF for failing to sail the course. She requested redress on the grounds that she had finished properly but was not given a finishing place. Protest Committee did not give redress because she "...failed to sail the course and that her failure to do so was entirely her own fault and not due to an act or omission of the race committee."

The appeal was upheld. Race committee can only score a boat DNF for failing to satisfy the definition of finish. Given that she did finish, it was improper for RC to score her DNF. The protest committee erred by not limiting the hearing to the incident described - i.e. the finish. To quote the casebook:


Moral: Race committee may score a boat accordingly for not starting or not finishing, or for voluntarily taking a penalty (SCP or RAF), but otherwise must score her according to her finishing position.

I hope that helps,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

The scorekeeper says thanks!...... I used to know this.... but i have gotten rusty!

From the other thread:

I certainly don't mean to impugn the Alter Cup race management. It would be wrong to make any specific judgement based on reports posted here. I do think, however, that it is worth having this discussion in a hypothetical sense, and this race provided a starting point.

If, indeed, a protest hearing was held, and the boat disqualified, and the score reported as DNF (rather than DSQ), then that is simply a typographical error. If the boat realized her error while racing, and stopped without finishing, then DNF is the correct score to give.

Regards,
Eric

From the other thread:


Rule 28.1 says "She may correct any errors to comply with this rule". That means you don't break this rule until you finish. At any point during the race, you can "unwind your string" and undo a mistake.

If you miss a mark and decide not to correct the error, you have two choices:
1) Elect not to finish (don't cross the finish line) and tell RC to score you DNF.
2) Finish and retire afterwards (tell RC to score you RAF).

I hope that helps,
Eric

Don't feel bad. Most people do the same thing. Highly experienced and well qualified PROs do too. I was recently Judge at a regional event run by a Certified Regional Race Officer (who, incidentally, is quite good), and I had to remind him that he couldn't score a boat DNF for missing a mark.

Regards,
Eric

Points wise, does a RAF = DNF ?

Yes. Both "shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of boats entered in the series". See rule A4.2.

Regards,
Eric

Thanks again Eric for offering and being available to help out judging with our Area C Qual this past weekend.

For this discussion you wrote "...one more than the number of boats entered in the series"

Does "entered in the series" mean registered for the Regatta vs starts in the race?

Thank you,

Yes. Boats are "entered" when the Organizing Authority accepts their registrations, not when they start a race.

I had a similar situation at the F-18 Canadian Nationals where I was the PRO.

After the racing, I was approached by one of the Quebec teams and asked if I was going to DNF the two or three boats (out of 37) that didn't make the weather offset mark in one race. I replied, "No, I can't (citing rule A5), but you are welcome to protest them if you wish." They said, "No - you must protest them! We don't want to make enemies!"

I said, "We didn't witness it from the signal boat, but my weather mark boat operator could be a witness for you in the hearing." They still didn't want to protest.

I already knew about it - because the weather mark boat reported it when it happened and was keeping track of sail numbers. They were all back-of-the-pack sailors who were having a bad day.

Personally, I'm against the RC protesting competitors, unless I personally witness an egregious foul and/or a question of sportsmanship.

However, my MBO's are meticulous note takers and will be happy (well maybe not happy; you're cutting into their beer-drinking time by requesting their presence in the room) to be your witness when you (as a competitor) file your protest.

Eric

The Albacore class modified the standard racing rules for their recent NA's at Rock hall. They chose to change this scoring code / points. ... A DNS/DNC was scored as number of finishers plus 1 versus the standard number of entries plus 1.

Obviously, if you have a blow out day... and many don't sail... they are flushed from the regatta competition with a large score. With a score of number of finishers plus 1 or 2 .... they are still in the race.

Is the strong argument for keeping with the standard racing rules.... IE... if you raced in the big wind... and took a chance of breaking something... you SHOULD have a big lead on those that did not race.

Thoughts??

I was recently in a situation where I never saw the off set mark! My view was blocked by other boats! I assume I rounded it, but when you're in traffic and trying to raise the spin alone, anything can happen.

Personally, I think all officials should be able to file protests. In all the major league sports, calling fouls is one of their primary responsibilities.

Ah, but that's where sailors are different.


So when you missed the offset mark, Pete - did you correct your course? If not, did you retire? Were you disqualified? If so, by whom were you protested? If the offset mark was too small for the conditions, did you request redress? (This was the case in Toronto the first day - and it was fixed on subsequent days by using a bigger mark.)

Unless on-the-water judging is specifically part of the program - where the sailors expect it - I (as the RC) will not be the course policeman. This is a self-policing sport. That means the competitors need to get off their boats and fill out a form. Catamaran sailors have gotten lazy in this regard - because "We don't want to make enemies!", to quote the Quebecois.

Many (most?) sailors have a very strong aversion to protesting. Part of this I understand (being a sailor myself and preferring to spend my time outside the protest room) but mainly I disagree. Lots of people feel that protesting is an accusation cheating. They won't protest because they don't want to offend the other sailor(s) - i.e. "make enemies". Somehow, we need to overcome that mindset. A hail of "protest" does not mean "you're a filthy lying cheater"; it just means "you can't do that".

Not protesting creates problems too. A protest hearing does more than penalize boats for rules infractions. It allows the boats involved to tell their stories to an impartial authority. Even if people are unhappy with the outcome, at least they were heard out. That simple courtesy eliminates a lot of ill will. Think about how much grumbling the persons in question would have avoided by protesting. Also, if a boat breaks a rule and nobody protests, her crew will never learn. Whenever I hear sailors complain "watch out for boat X, she breaks rule Y all the time", I wonder "do you ever protest her?"


The preamble to the rules, titled "Basic Principle - Sportsmanship and the Rules", says:

The competitors themselves are primarily responsible for enforcing the rules. It is their job to protest, not race committee's. RC is permitted to protest, but is not obligated to. The experienced PROs I know feel that if the competitors don't protest, then they shouldn't either. They typically only protest infractions that nobody else is around to witness, or particularly egregious fouls.

Regards,
Eric

I don't know if I missed the mark, there were boats everywhere. If I missed the mark so did others. My point is it's easy to overlook in heavy traffic.

In the following race I did miss the mark, was protested and unwound.

The organizing authority can change the scoring system, provided they describe it in the SIs (and potentially also the NOR). For example, it's common to add the scoring code TLE (time limit expired) to be scored points for the place one more than the number of boats that finished within the time window. Changing the scores for other codes may be appropriate if large numbers of entries do not compete.

My thoughts are that the scoring system should be whatever the competitors want. Some fleets like it one way, and some fleets prefer the other. There's no reason not to score the Albacores however they like.

That said, another thought is that RC should give extra consideration to not running races in those conditions. Some things should set off warning bells in a PRO's mind and a large number of boats dropping out is one of those things. Competitors generally don't like choosing between the chance for a trophy, and risk of damage or injury. Now, racing may still be entirely appropriate - I just think RC needs to make that decision deliberately.

Regards,
Eric

Every sport has its own level of officiating. Baseball has an umpire that calls every pitch; ultimate frisbee is entirely self-policed. Sailing is somewhere inbetween. Competitors are primarlily responsible for enforcing the rules. Race committee and protest committee may protest boats as well (but are generally not obligated to). Even in match racing, where umpires are watching like hawks, the boats have to fly a protest flag for them to call a penalty.

Regards,
Eric