| Racing Rules: "Barging" #275401 09/16/14 08:17 AM 09/16/14 08:17 AM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA Isotope235 OP
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Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA | The term "barging" isn't in the racing rules at all. Nevertheless, the hail "you're barging" is often heard at the starting line, and commonly used in later discussions. So, what exactly is "barging"? A boat "barges" when she tries to claim room to which she is not entitled at a starting mark. The origin of the term refers to a boat trying to stick her nose in at the "signal barge". The rules surrounding barging may seem complicated at first, but they're really quite simple. This is one of the instances where RRS 18 "Mark-Room" does not apply. Take a look at the preamble to Part 2, Section C "At marks and obstructions". It says "Section C rules do not apply at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water or at its anchor line from the time boats are approaching them to start until they have passed them". Provided that - the mark is surrounded by navigable water (which is almost always the case), and
- boats are approaching the line to start, then
rule 18 (and 19 and 20) does not apply. Therefore, an outside boat is not obligated to give an inside boat mark-room at the start. When boats overlapped on the same tack approach a signal boat to start, they are governed by RRS 11 "On the same tack, overlapped", not rule 18. As long as she complies with rules 14, 15, 16, and 17, a leeward boat can pinch a windward boat off at the mark, forcing the other boat to drop behind or peel away. There are a couple of caveats. First, the leeward boat (L) has to "close the door" on the windward boat (W) in time. If L changes course to shut W out, then (in accordance with RRS 16.1) she must give W room to keep clear. L cannot force W into the mark. L must head up early enough that W can turn away and avoid the mark in a seamanlike way. If L waits until W's bow is under the mark (or so close that she can't tack), then L may not luff up. Secondly, if L has closed the door in time and W "barges in" anyway, L must attempt to avoid contact per RRS 14. L must bear away and let W in. Her only recourse is to protest. I'll try to put together some illustrative diagrams and post them when I have time. I hope that helps, Eric Rasmussen US Sailing Certified Judge Chair, SAYRA Appeals Committee | | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: Isotope235]
#275405 09/16/14 09:49 AM 09/16/14 09:49 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | " A good crew on L will not let W in there, but the only legal way to keep W out is to luff with enough time such that W can't get overlapped with the stern of the signal boat. If that happens, L has allowed W space to which W was not entitled, but at that point has no recourse (especially not luffing W into the signal boat)."
From Mike's post... I was unaware that overlap to the Signal Boat. I thought it was overlap on the clear ahead boat..
So if the signal boat is longer than the boats sailing, an overlap could be established by W if they cross the stern of the signal boat, even before they reach the stern of L?
Jay
| | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#275410 09/16/14 10:38 AM 09/16/14 10:38 AM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA Isotope235 OP
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Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA | So if the signal boat is longer than the boats sailing, an overlap could be established by W if they cross the stern of the signal boat, even before they reach the stern of L? Don't think of it in terms of "overlapped with" the signal boat. Instead, concentrate on "room to keep clear" of the signal boat. When L changes course to shut W out, she needs to give W enough space that W can avoid the mark (and meet her other obligations) by maneuvering promptly in a seamanlike way. Certainly, if W already has her bow under the stern of the signal boat, L has waited too long. It may, however, also be too late even before W reaches the signal boat. There's no set distance or time; L simply must give W enough space to peel away in the existing conditions. | | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: Isotope235]
#275411 09/16/14 10:40 AM 09/16/14 10:40 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | man, all that thinking makes my head hurt. But very good information to consider.
Jay
| | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#275412 09/16/14 10:46 AM 09/16/14 10:46 AM |
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 443 Edmonton, Alberta, Canada bobcat
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Posts: 443 Edmonton, Alberta, Canada | Different application of the word overlap. Stealing images from the web. Here Leeward is warning windward off in time and by sailing close-hauled is demonstrating the intent to not allow windward in. Here RED allowed Green to get to position 2. Not necessarily overlapped with R/C in our defined sense of overlap but Green doesn't have a legal out. | | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: bobcat]
#275413 09/16/14 11:49 AM 09/16/14 11:49 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | so if Green at position 2 has no way to keep clear without hitting the starting boat, Red position 2 has to give way, correct?
If Red at position 1 had luffed harder (pointing right at starboard corner of starting boat) she could have possibly peeled Green off of the starting area? wait... it says Green had the overlap on Red at position 1
Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 09/16/14 11:51 AM.
Jay
| | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: Isotope235]
#275418 09/16/14 01:08 PM 09/16/14 01:08 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | What if W ignores all indicators there will be no room for her and decides to take her chances because L is obligated to let her in to avoid contact. Based on what I'm reading here W's chances are pretty good they would be exonerated in a protest. All W has to do is sell that they where pinned by the RC and had an overlap on L. Clearly barging isn't an automatic loser.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: David Ingram]
#275419 09/16/14 01:33 PM 09/16/14 01:33 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | What if W ignores all indicators there will be no room for her and decides to take her chances because L is obligated to let her in to avoid contact. Based on what I'm reading here W's chances are pretty good they would be exonerated in a protest. All W has to do is sell that they where pinned by the RC and had an overlap on L. Clearly barging isn't an automatic loser. I see you speak wisdom, o barge-ed master? grass-hoppa seek knowredge...
Jay
| | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: David Ingram]
#275420 09/16/14 01:35 PM 09/16/14 01:35 PM |
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Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA | What if W ignores all indicators there will be no room for her and decides to take her chances because L is obligated to let her in to avoid contact. If L has closed the door on W in time, but W goes in anyway and L has to take avoiding action, then W breaks RRS 11. If protest committee finds those facts, then L should prevail in the hearing. I hope that helps, Eric | | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: Isotope235]
#275422 09/16/14 01:37 PM 09/16/14 01:37 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | If L has closed the door on W in time, Eric so when is that? before overlap I presume?
Jay
| | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#275423 09/16/14 01:45 PM 09/16/14 01:45 PM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA Isotope235 OP
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Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA | so when is that? before overlap I presume? When L changes course to shut W out, she needs to give W enough space that W can avoid the mark (and meet her other obligations) by maneuvering promptly in a seamanlike way. If so, L has met her obligation under RRS 16.1. | | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: bobcat]
#275424 09/16/14 01:59 PM 09/16/14 01:59 PM |
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Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA | Here RED allowed Green to get to position 2. Not necessarily overlapped with R/C in our defined sense of overlap but Green doesn't have a legal out. This diagram doesn't illustrate barging. It shows a case where the signal boat is not a mark (the mark is the buoy to the left). Here, the boat is an obstruction and inside boats are entitled to room. Note that this is a very unusual exception -- I have never seen a starting line set this way. I hope that helps, Eric | | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: Isotope235]
#275425 09/16/14 02:29 PM 09/16/14 02:29 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | Here RED allowed Green to get to position 2. Not necessarily overlapped with R/C in our defined sense of overlap but Green doesn't have a legal out. This diagram doesn't illustrate barging. It shows a case where the signal boat is not a mark (the mark is the buoy to the left). Here, the boat is an obstruction and inside boats are entitled to room. Note that this is a very unusual exception -- I have never seen a starting line set this way. I hope that helps, Eric Thank you. I thought it was just me. I'm still struggling with "shutting the door" and "let them in". In my mind if I'm on a perfect close hauled drift to the boat I've shut the door ages ago but I can also see where W could argue I (L) let them in. The terms "let them in" and "shut the door" just seem way to open to interpretation. As a judge what do you expect to hear when these two arguments are being made? I know you've said once W is pinned by the boat it's game over W wins. I'm trying to avoid a he said she said and if I have to go to the room I want to kill it!
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: David Ingram]
#275427 09/16/14 02:45 PM 09/16/14 02:45 PM |
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 443 Edmonton, Alberta, Canada bobcat
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Posts: 443 Edmonton, Alberta, Canada | I'm trying to avoid a he said she said and if I have to go to the room I want to kill it! I think that the advice here would be to start collecting witnesses. You do that by loudly hailing your intent as indicated in the first drawing.
Last edited by bobcat; 09/16/14 02:46 PM.
| | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: David Ingram]
#275428 09/16/14 02:45 PM 09/16/14 02:45 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Here RED allowed Green to get to position 2. Not necessarily overlapped with R/C in our defined sense of overlap but Green doesn't have a legal out. This diagram doesn't illustrate barging. It shows a case where the signal boat is not a mark (the mark is the buoy to the left). Here, the boat is an obstruction and inside boats are entitled to room. Note that this is a very unusual exception -- I have never seen a starting line set this way. I hope that helps, Eric Thank you. I thought it was just me. I'm still struggling with "shutting the door" and "let them in". In my mind if I'm on a perfect close hauled drift to the boat I've shut the door ages ago but I can also see where W could argue I (L) let them in. The terms "let them in" and "shut the door" just seem way to open to interpretation. As a judge what to you expect to hear when these two arguments are being made. I know you've said once W is pinned by the boat it's game over W wins. I'm trying to avoid a he said she said and if I have to go to the room I want to kill it! Yeah, I was over here going "wubudu, what?" with regards to that diagram. I would say that if the orange boat was the starting boat the the starting end of the line, the red boats have established intent and direction to leave no room at the orange boat, the green boats would need to avoid both reds and the start boat. That diagram seems to indicate that the flag is the right end of the starting line and that orange boat happens to be some race committee just sitting there (which I have seen before...usually in sloppy beer can races where one of the mark boats loosely tie up to the committee boat. Which does beg an interesting question. If the sailing instructions don't indicate how to treat this boat that is moored up to the official starting boat (as an extension of that boat or whatever), how do you treat it?
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: David Ingram]
#275432 09/16/14 03:46 PM 09/16/14 03:46 PM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA Isotope235 OP
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Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA | I'm still struggling with "shutting the door" and "let them in". In my mind if I'm on a perfect close hauled drift to the boat I've shut the door ages ago but I can also see where W could argue I (L) let them in. The terms "let them in" and "shut the door" just seem way to open to interpretation. "Shut the door" is not a term used in the rules, but rather a convenient metaphor (probably from the days of door-to-door salesmen -- you had to shut it before they got a "foot in the door"). What I mean by it is that L, when she changes course to the point where there is no room for W to pass between her and the mark/committee boat, at that time W must have an opportunity to avoid the mark (by slowing down or passing it on the other side. If so (and L thereafter holds her course), then L has "shut the door" on W. If L waits until W can no longer avoid the mark by slowing down or turning away before changing course, then L has "let her in". When talking to sailors about starting tactics, I often advise that they take a transit on the layline to the signal boat. That way, they know where to turn close-hauled in order to shut out windward boats (without getting shut out themselves). Provided you don't let them get clear ahead of you, you can "close the door" on windward boats well back of the signal boat. I hope that helps, Eric | | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: bobcat]
#275433 09/16/14 03:50 PM 09/16/14 03:50 PM |
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Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA | I think that the advice here would be to start collecting witnesses. The people on the race committee boat make excellent witnesses. They are impartial and have an up-close view of the incident (you know they are watching ) | | | Re: Racing Rules: "Barging"
[Re: Isotope235]
#275434 09/16/14 04:03 PM 09/16/14 04:03 PM |
Joined: May 2006 Posts: 1,383 Kingston SE South Australia JeffS
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Posts: 1,383 Kingston SE South Australia | This rule seems to say if someone camps behind the start boat making a little headway they own the start
Jeff Southall Current boats Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider Nacra 18 Square Arrow 1576
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