Zee,

I will step up and state that all of the different A's that I have sailed are pretty easy to right by yourself. Are you looking at racing these boats or sailing them for pleasure? The A-Class is very competitive, fun to sail in and one of the leading innovation classes. As to the sails, I am most impressed right now with what Jay and Pease are building at Glaser Sails http://glasersails.com/. I watched the different sail designs that they brought to the a-class mid-winters and was extremely impressed with their constant research, development and overall commitment to the class. But beyond that, they are producing extremely fast sails for the A-Class right now. I think that it will be interesting to see how sailors such as Lars Guck, the Glasers, Pete Melvin and the other top U.S. A-class sailors do at the worlds in Islamorada this November. Looks like you would like to purchase now though. If you look on the usaca.info website, you will find a great deal of information about different builders as well as some information about who is sailing which boat with their mast and sail choices. The A3 is currently one of the hot boats in the class as is the Flyer MK2. Ian & John Lindahl is also designing and building a new hull. I believe you choose your mast, beams blades and boards and he will build the hulls around those. You can try reaching him at jlindahl_lcd@yahoo.com . Good luck with your purchase.

stay with the A. its more fun to sail singlehanded than any of the other cats mentioned. the sucess of the a-cat is purely based on that people love those boats. its need quite some radical 18sq to outperform a modern A and the A is the easier to handle on land and on water. the mast might be tall but its also very light too, like everything from that boat. maybe only a moth would be another step in lightness... but surely more difficult to sail.

once you got used to the A and you really lack thrill in light wind you can still add a spi later.

maybe by time you get interested in racing the A and there are worldchampionships and european championships every year where it is always somehow possible to rent a boat.

the geltek flyer is surely a good boat, as are the auscat flyer (ahpc) in terms of quality. not sure about the others.

good luck and have fun soon!

wouter, nice explanation of turbular and laminar flow.

That was the point I am trying to make. Those of us who sail them, love them. Post a noter on the usaca.info website to dave Carlson when you are ready to add a spinnaker to the rig. He and others in the class have boats with a spi option. Again, stay with the A-Class, you will love the boat, it is a great boat to sail and more importantly the class is very active and the members that I have met are great of the water with their openess and assistance.

In terms of adding a spi to an A-cat later on ... Im not so sure that it would be a good idea since the hulls and overall design of the A-cats arent made to handle the extra weight that a spi would add plus the balance would be off and Im sure that nosedives would be an issue.

But I still think that the Nacra A3 is one of my top choices.

But I still have one more cat to ask about (sorry for all the questions) .. The Nacra I17 .. the fact that its a singlehandle cat with a spi is interesting so does any1 recommend it?

Sarah:

Check you eamil inbox. Sent you a link to THE expert on that boat.

Doug

I would say the A will be faster then shadow in 7 knots of wind when both are handles right.




The shadow is not an F16. F16's will be faster then the shadow in 7 knots of wind as well.

Of course the next question then becomes.

Will the A-cat be faster or slower in 7 knots of winds when both are handled well ?

What do the rating systems say. Texel and VYC (Australia) say the F16 will be faster. SCHRS (ISAF) and US portsmouth say the A-cat will be faster.

Not much help there.

My personal experience says that it all dependents on whether the F16 crew can get that spinnaker drawing. In my experience you can easily do that in 7 knots of wind. But no matter how you look at it both boats will be very close in arount-the-course-speed in those conditions, of course when both are sailed well.




This is best answered by Dermot. But the spitfire was designed as a pure doublehanded boat, it would stand to reason that the other boats mentioned, who are more geared towards singlehanding, would be more suited to your situation.




I agree with Dermot here. It is sometimes surprising how fast these more modests designs can be. If I hadn't been involved with the F16's I would have seriously considered the Shadow myself.




"... one of ..." is definately the key component here. 15 years ago the A-class used to be the only real innovative class but alot has changed over the last 15 years.




And all the people who sail other types do so because they hate them ?

Personally I would claim that the boat type that gives a given person the most enjoyment (fun) dependents on their character. Simply put "one size doesn't fit all" or "an A-cat doesn't suit all"

I submit myself as an counter argument to your claim that it is more fun to sail an A-cat then all other boats mentioned. I even feel the Shadow would be a more enjoyable boat for me personally then the A-cat. My character simply doesn't appreciate doing the wildthing on downwind legs to get some speed. I want to fly downwind in 7 knots of wind and not hug the mast with my buttocks squeeshed tight hoping that this time I can hold on to that gust.

You will never hear me claim that the A-cat isn't fun or that it is a bad design because it really isn't. But you'll also never hear me claim that boat type X is (always) more fun then any other boat type mentioned. That would be more comparable to some religious dogma then an honest appreciation of the choices at hand.

Personalities differ between sailors and so to the boat types that will give them the most enjoyment. For you it is an A-cat for me it isn't. And only Zee can decide for herself what it will be for her.





I can also turn that around :

It will be quite some radical A-cat to outperform a modern 18 sq.

I've raced several years against a skilled sailor when he had a 15 sq. and since last year when he raced an A-cat using the same hulls/daggerboard/rudders. There is not question about it, he was much faster on the 15 sq. version of his platform then he was on the A-cat version of it.

In 7 knots of (dominant) winds a modern 18 sq. would kill a modern A-cat hands down. (comparing oranges with oranges)




That is true, Dirk.

But it is also more involved then that. The spinnaker goes directly against the core character of the A-cat. And the change in behaviviour is significant enough to favour changes to the hulls. In effect it will never be as good as it could have been when it had been designed from the bottom up to carry a spinnaker.

We both sailed boats that were modified to carry a spinnaker and we both sailed purpose build spinnaker boats. As such we both know what the differences are. The second will always feel more calm and balanced then the first and as a result it will be faster as well.

I would argue that an A-cat should remain what it is. If a spinnaker boat is desired then getting an A-cat but retrofitted with a spi is not a smart choice. Just as much as it is not smart to get an F16 without the intent of ever sailing it without a spinnaker. That is just not the way these boats work.




Dirk will be able to tell you this as he did fit a spinnaker to his A-cat and he will also attest to the fact that with it the A-cat trademark balance will be off.




Specify which version you are refering to :

The Inter 17 (european version), I17-R (US-version) or the F17 as the newest iteration is called now.

Last year data that I process says :

I-17 (EU) = much heavier, much slower and much less often build then the A-cats, F16's and Spitfire

I17-R (US) = lighter then EU version and faster then it, but more a powerhouse boat then the A's and F16's and more expensive as well (on the EU market).

F17 = I have yet to see any sold in the EU market place.

All named version are extremely rare outside of the great lakes region in the USA where a good sized fleet of F17's resides.

In my experience the Middle-East tends to be includes in the European Market so this info may well apply to you too.

Wouter

Hi Zee,
The I17 with the aluminum mast is not being sold anymore I think. The "F17" has a taller carbon mast and is cheaper than an A3. I think that the F17 would be a better class to get into since it isn't an arms race like the A class is. You won't have to worry about having the latest boat since it is a 1 design(manufacturer) class. Also, the addition of a spinnaker will double your fun especially in light air.
Dave

Actually this version appears to be still offered in Europe.

http://www.nacraeurope.com/nacra17.php




This in itself is true but that is because the last time I checked the European prices the A2 was the most expensive A-cat ever and that included the Marstrom A-cats.

The I17-R or F17 was offered to somebody I know at 17.850 Euro's, that is more expensive then "The Tool A-cat" and the Boyer A-cats used to go for.

Maybe things changed in the last 12 months but I doubt it.





Normally you would have a point but since there have been no less then 6 different versions of the Inter-17 in the 9 years since its inception, your statement is totally bogus They are and have been :

Aus I-17, EU I-17, US I-17R, EU I-17XL, US F17 and now the new EU I-17


And all these versions have been sufficiently different to have significantly different ratings.

The European Texel rating already lists 3 different Inter-17 singlehanders at ;

Nacra Inter 17 109
nacra Inter 17 Xl 107
Nacra Inter 17 R 102

This doesn't include the new EU I-17 yet of which the dealor claims that is has a larger spinnaker and apparently 15 kg less weight.

Source : http://www.watersportverbond.nl/data/Z8F_numdet-01-4-02-2007.pdf

and

http://www.nacraeurope.com/nacra17.php


At least in the A-cat class older design still are somewhat competitive. If you had bought a EU I-17 say 3 years ago then today you will be chanceless against the I-17R or the new I-17. 2 sq. mtr. more sailarea and a spinnaker that is also 2 sq. mtr. larger makes sure of that.

In fact I would turn the argument around. If someone is worried about the need to having the latest version of a boat he would be far better off in the A-cat class then the I-17 class. The fact that some dealors call thier own classes One-Design classes doesn't mean they actually are on. Together with the Hobie Tiger the Inter-17 is the counterexample against such claims.



That is something I agree upon with you Dave.

Wouter

Yes, it sometimes looks like an arms race around here. The question always is in this class; is your boat holding you back. I sail a modified 1996 Waterat right now. From where I sit, it seems that the real issue with these boats is not so much the hull shape, but the mast, sail and rigging that sits atop the platform. It is going to be a while before the hull shapes work themselves out. If I were looking at a new boat I would look at the A3, the Tool and the new Flyer, or possibly the new Scheurer Gen-5 www.messmer-seiler.ch/scheurer. Glenn Ashby is shipping in some new Flyers that will be available after the worlds. The Tool seems to be in full production right now. The A3 is modified from the A2 to give the boat better handling characteristics. The reports on the Flyer are great and not much has been stated about the Scheurer Gen-5 yet.

Anyway, back to the point here. Yes, the a-class is a development class and sailors are always looking for that extra .01 of a knot that gets them over the finish line one meter in front of the next boat. I still like this class, believe in the direction that it is heading (from stalled growth in the late 80's/early 90's to almost explosive growth today. So ask yourself what you want from a boat? How much do you want to spend? What is important to you in making this decision and so on? These couple of question will tell you whether or not to consider an A-class boat or to look elsewhere. If you continue to look at the a-class, post questions about the A3 to members that currently sail them and ask how they enjoy the boat. Try Lars at Guck Inc in Bristol and see if he will share his insights on the boat and class with you. Lars is who convinced me to join the class and buy a boat. Goodluck!

At the mid-winters, I sailed a 2000 Bim with new sails and found it more than competitive, I just wasn't. New boat, new driver, not a fast combination. My Waterat will be competitive as well. As I stated in the last post, right now the mast-sail combination are the areas to focus upon. They are where the speed differences lay at the moment.

We all seem to have forgotten the F16's here in the argument, I would suspect that Zee would on occassions want to take a friend out sailing and also may benefit by the slightly less fragile build of the F16's ( beach handling in particular ). Also for less money than an A3 she gets all the goodies such as spinnaker T foils etc which may suit her sailing requirements.

Thank you for all the replies and thanx Wouter for the detailed posts they are really helping (sorry for the trouble)

Its seems that the F16 is whats holding me back from buying a Nacra A3. Which F16 would you guys recommend for me? that way I could look into that specific design and compare it to the A3. So if price wasnt an issue is the F16 still a better choice than the A3? would it be as fast in app. 7 knots?

Oh and has any1 heard of any catamaran events in Dubai? Im only an hour plane ride away and if there are A-class or F16 events over there that would definetly effect my decision.

Thanx again

Wouter,
First of all if you would do your home work you would realize that I was talking about the north american F17s since I am in north america. I have no idea what they are doing with the I17/f17 in europe. So before you jump on someone and accuse them of being "totally bogus" why don't you do your homework?

A Guy called Peter Eldridge posted on the Spitfire Chatsite back in November - He was from Dubai. He might know of events in the area.
http://www.spitfiresailing.org.uk/messageboard.asp?messageID=2020

Guys:

What do you think about the DK-17. I run 210-230 lbs. Just to much weight for the A3 as it is made for 150-160 from what I have heard. Thinking of having Lars Guck (per advice from DK-17 owner) build me one with Hall mast and Glaser sail in 2008.

Doug

In this posting I answer a few items from several different posters. Zee, I'll answer your questions last, forgive me <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.


First Dave.



I am fully aware of that. Now if you had done your homework then you would know that the Middle East is nearly always included in the European market. Meaning that European dealors and head offices service that region when no major offices are to be found locally. Therefor the European Inter-17 situation is of importance. I actually mentioned this in one of my earlier postings.

But even without this element, it is still a very long stretch to call the I-17 a One-design class simply because of the local situation around the great lakes in the USA. Go to a different continent and you'll find all the other 5 different versions of it. In some regions like Europe you'll find several different versions on the same cirquit.

As of yet Nacra has not made any effort to unify this class to a single version as evidenced by the fact that dealors in Australia, Europe and USA all offer an different version as a new I-17.

This says nothing in particular about the I-17 being a good boat or not. Just that its claimed One-design status is boogus.

I would consider knowing this background as having done my homework.




These spitfire sailors are indeed in Dubai and they are Peter and Carol Eldridge. A Blade F16 went there as well in 2006. Its sailnumber is UAE719 and it is sailed by David and Sana Holligan.

The both have listed themself on out F16 class member world map, although during the last website make-over we seem to have lost some pins like that of team Eldrigde. Here are the pics of them with their boats.

http://www.frappr.com/formula16classgroup/photos/96235

http://www.frappr.com/formula16classgroup/photos/2662576

World map member page : www.frapper.com/formula16classgroup





I think Zee (Sarah) is much too light for the DK17. Her body weight should be right in the range of A3 that you specify. Personally I think the A3 will carry more weight then you specify.





It is not trouble for me. I can talk boats for hour on end. I don't have much time to do so lately but since I'm back at home and being ill I have more time to spend on this then I really would like.





Okay, specifically about the F16's now and again you must choose what boat suits your desire the best.

If price isn't an issue then I would advice the following setup, this includes several aspects from different F16 which you can combine into one boat as price is not an issue.

Take as the base platform the 2007 version of the VWM Blade F16 order it with catamaran parts daggerboards and rudders (which should be standard for the 2007 version if I'm informed correctly), order a Saarberg or Scott Anderson carbon mast for it and have either Andrew Landenberger or Glaser cut a suit of sails for it upon specifying your weight and/or intended usage (only solo or mixed solo doublehanded). I was personally very impressed by the Landenberger F16 spinnaker design of 2006. We from Glaser sails that he can make a very good F16 singlehander mainsail for the range were your body weight is expected to be. Paul Killkenny is most probably of your stature and his Glaser sail is just right for him. Forget about any carbon beams and such as they are useless. Current F16 platform stiffness of the 2007 Blade is the same as any carbon A-cat, even with aluminium beams and despite the fact that the platform is significantly wider. I think that having the hulls made out of kevlar laminate is an option that costs 500 Euro's extra, or in that range. I would get it. Reasons, kevlar is a little lighter then the standard glass laminate and it has the best impact resistance of all laminates. In effect you can hit it with your knees, elbows and trapeze hook and not dent it or crack it. With it the hulls will take alot of abuse which is especially handy when your landing area isn't pure sand but a little bit rocky or something. And in your case I would seriously consider T-foil rudders. You don't need them in 5 - 10 knots of wind, but above 10 knots they really make the platform stable in the fore-aft direction which will mean that even in a big blow it will be as easy as a kitten under spinnaker. When I sailed the Stealth F16 I found that the T-foil rudders would allow you to throw the boat around practically without a care even in big winds as it would feel very firm. Many of us F16 sailors sail without T-foils and that is really not an issue, but if you are a little bit intimidated by that spinnaker then gettting these may be a smart move.

In the way of speed. It will most definately be fast in 7 knots of wind. I would even dare to say that it would be among the fastest beach catamarans available today if it would not be the fastest of all in these conditions (when singlehanded). Because in 7 knots of wind the spinnaker will start to draw well and get you down the downwind leg both fast and deep. The F16 carbon rig would make use of the many years of A-cat development that has gone in this type of rig and as such would make your upwind performance quite impressive. The catamaran parts rudders and daggerboards are pretty much state of the art, again due to many years of develop in other classes. Combined these three aspects should make it faster then a modern A-cat around the course although maybe not by very large margins. I'm convinced however that you would be significantly faster on it as it is just much easier to drive the spinnaker downwind and go fast there then it is to wildthing the A-cat to its topspeed downwind.

The A-cat is a beautiful concept of efficiency, that it really is. But it is also sensitive to how you sail it as well as trim and tuning changes. The F16's behave in a similar fashion but in a less extreme manner. Mostly because of the spinnaker. For example, setting the spinnaker on the downwind legs allows you to maintain your upwind setting mainsail settings (excluding traveller and mainsheet) and still go fast downwind. Meaning that you only have to adjust the mainsail for the conditions of the day once and then you can just let it be for the rest of the sailing trip. To get the A-cat to performan well you'll really do need to adjust the settings of the whole rig when you chance courses. This one reason but there are others as well.

Compating the A-cats to F16's will show the aluminium masted F16's to be less smooth in feel then the A-cats, but as money is not an issue with you, you can just get an carbon F16 mast and negate this difference.

My cost estimate of this Blade F16 I specified above is 17.500 Euro's and this includes all the upgrades and a full doublehanded suit of sails and lay-out. If you only sail solo then not buying the jib setup could lower the price by about 500 Euro's I think. Glaser sails are current most attractive pricewise as well, so you are not losing any money there either. Basically this very much upgraded F16 would be cheaper then the European quotes I saw for the alternatives named in this thread, with the Shadow as the only exception. My A2 quote is of early 2006 and then it was ludicrously more expensive then 17.500 Euro's. They may well have come down since, it is worth checking out.




See my earlier comment. You could go down there and get to test sail some of these boats. That will always be a smart thing to do.



You are welcome.

Wouter

My thoughts on A cats.

A cats are very cool. I think you should get a ride on one before you decide. If you don’t absolutely love it then buy something else. I bet you buy one after you sail it. For me it is hands down the best ride there is until the water freezes and the iceboat comes out. On the flip side, many people can’t imagine life without a spinnaker downwind. Personally, I think it is fun, but not enough to make me want to trade in the A. I owned 3 spin boats before I bought the A and I never looked back. Your mileage may vary.

To Doug:
If you can get Lars to build you a DK17 you would have an outstanding boat. I consider Lars to be the best small boat repair shop on the east coast. If I could chose between a Lars Guk built boat and a factory built A3, I would take Lars any day.

Cheers,
Eric Anderson

Hi Zee, your more than welcome to try the VWM Blade in Dubai. We have a mix of F18's (Tiger, Nacra, Cirrus), Spitfires, Shadows, H16's, A2 etc. I sail it in both one-up & two-up configuration. Our Blade is 2006 vintage, with Ashby Main & Jib & Ullman kite. We are quite light weight (1up=66kg, 2up=110kg), but are very competitive across the wind range. I love the A's, but after sailing the Blade, wouldn't part with it. Seems we may be getting a few more Blades to Dubai as well! Good luck with the decision.

Hey Wouter if the above is true, how did they manage to keep the boat so stiff not using carbon, increasing the wall thickness, better mounting ???????