Looks to me as though the concept is as dead as the proverbial Do Do bird.

Hi Berny

I keep checking here to see if theres any action, I don't think its because people outside aren't interested, theres just not drawing people in.

If there were a homebuild option along the lines of the F16 (Blade) or something like that, I'm sure people would sit up and pay attention.

Just my thoughts.

Regards

Berny
Don't pronounce it DOA yet...The concept is fine...it seems the cost to length ratio keeps it stalled.

Regards, Bob

Hey Guys,

DOA!! Not yet. I agree that the price is an issue, but there is also ZERO exposure. I was at the Spring Fever Regatta last week and the concept of the F14 was not even mentioned. That was because there were no F14s at the race.

The F16 and the Mystere 4.3 are awesome boats, but at ~230lbs they are heavy and not as easy to right if you sail alone must of the time.

It would be really nice to have an F14 (with a kite) platform at about 75kg (the weight of an A-cat) that you could race/sail single handed and when your wife, kid, or cute neighbor wants to sail to the nearest island, you can take them without worrying that the platform is going to suffer.

Anyway, that’s my dream.

Cheers, Waldo

Geez Waldo, that is exactly what the Alpha Omega F14 is, an all up sailing weight of 75kg, spinnaker, all carbon construction, raced one up but due to its extremely strong construction can be, and is used "off the beach" regularly as a pleasure sailer. It also kicks butt around the racecourse, competing head to head with A class, F16's, F18's, 5.8 Nacras, etc. Berny’s 430 is also right up there, but where are the buyers?

The question IS can you get your boats to the US at a fair price. YES it is a fast boat (LOVED the video you sent), BUT can we afford it.

Doug

I don’t know just what people consider “a fair price” to be Doug. When we offer a cat onto the market that has an equitable performance to all the other larger cats mentioned above, and is unquestionably enormously rewarding and thrilling to sail, is controllable throughout the full range of sailing conditions, and is built from materials that give it a very long competitive life, even when abused as a knock about, off the beach fun sailer and it can also be moved around the beach easily solo by the lightest of sailers. All this for a price that is just above our building cost but still way lower in price than any of the larger cats that it compares to in performance, just what is a “fair price”?
When I look at the current prices for any production 14’ cat and compare their price and performance to ours, there is no comparison. For two to four thousand dollars (Aust’) less you get a cat that at best, is no better than 15 to 25 minutes in a hundred behind the F14 around any race course and has a life expectancy less than half of the Alpha’s. It’s a bit like saying, “I want a top of the range Mercedes with ALL the extras, BUT it has to be at the price of a little Hyundai Excel”. Ain’t no free lunches in this life Doug!

So what is the current price of your boat to the US? I agree it us a VERY nice boat. Just looking at a lot of options for new boat in 2008. Blade is one of them. Yes I know that depends on exchange rate. But at least a ballpark figure.

Doug

i think a while ago Darryl said $17000.00 aus $14000.00 US plus freight. with out the mast it would be easy to freight in a container.He has the current boats for sale so why not buy one of those already race proven and tuned.

found this on other forum ALL carbon fibre hulls, mast, beams, boom, spinnaker pole, tiller extension, etc, etc, F14 catamarans all up sailing weight 75kgs, standard with spinnaker, available now.
Race results show that these are the highest performing 14' cats in the world today, not by any "minor" amount, but so far out in front that you need "binoculars" to even see them ahead from on board any other 14' cat (and most 16' cats as well).
Better than 93% of the performance of an F18 at a considerable lesser price. Built to last and be fully competitive for many, many years.
Full price ready to sail/race ex workshop (minus only trailer)
$17,000.00
Or buy a set of hulls and /or other components separately and build up your own F14!
Phone Darryl on 08 8326 0877 for any further information or just to talk.

As a whole, boat manufactures might do well to establish list prices on the internet. You can put in a disclaimer about this price is of MM/DD/YYYY and is subject to change because of material price and other cost increases, but at least the buying public would have an idea if a given boat was in the ball park of their budget. Many outboard power boats do this…you can pick the model you want, the equipment you want, and price it out yourself. With instant access to your web site, you can update the price any time there is a change.

By not publishing prices a lot of energy on both sides of the equation is wasted... As a manufacture you don't want to spend your valuable time talking to people who are not even close to being in a position to afford your product...as a buyer one does not want to run a gauntlet to get a price on a product they think they may be interested in.

Regards,
Bob

If you are serious....

http://www.catsailor.net/cgi-bin/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000337.html

It's dead!

My moulds will be going to the tip soon.

Bern

"It's dead!

My moulds will be going to the tip soon."

I have to ask...what is a "tip"?

Regards,
Bob

Hi Bern
Do you have any pictures of the molds?...maybe an album with documenting the construction of the plug and female mold?

Did you ever price out shipping costs to the US?

Maybe there would be more interest if particulars were known...It is hard for someone to get a real feel for what you are offering when all there is to go by is a handful of still photos of the completed boat...sailing mainly in light conditions. Not to say you have to go out and do a full blown video like A&O but the more information the better.

Regards,
Bob

Bob, 'the tip' is the rubbish dump. They are taking up space in my garden/yard/driveway/shed and I'm sick of looking at them. If nobody is interested in F14 or my 430 then I may as well dump the moulds on the scrap heap.

I had all that info available, all the specs, I did news letters on construction and trials, published race results, had articles printed in Aus Sailing magazine, had my own web page, yada yada yada. The boat has been on the water since 1999!
I've even offered the use of the moulds for here FREE! No body took me up on the offer.

If I had one person, just one, really interested in knowing more about the boat [there is one another boat being built as I speak], more than just a casual passing interest, I'd be enthused, but after SEVEN YEARS of racing and seldom being beat by any other 14, and that's without the kite, I'd be buoyed but realistically I've run out of time. I'm 66yrs old and it's time to other things.

If any of you blokes are interested enough to get a group together and freight the moulds to the US, you can have them for the freight costs.
I seriously doubt anyone has the time, the money or the permission to do diddly about it.

Na, sadly, she's as dead as the DO Do.

Berny

If I remember rightly Berny, the offer was for the use of the molds, only if a professional fibreglasser that you were satisfied with was used. Otherwise I would have been only too happy to have borrowed the moulds. Regards Nick

Why didn't you just ask?

Hi Berny, There are a few reasons but the main ones being: That you had said what you wanted a glasser to your satisfaction, which wasn't unreasonable in my opinion but out of my price range given my second reason.
The logistics of getting the moulds over to WA and of course cost of doing so...especially if they got damaged. Finally, I'd be building a catamaran that wouldn't exactly be welcomed into the local catamaran fleet, which are Windrushes...especially if it was likely to whip their butts. Thanks for replying though, Nick

That's fair.

Too bad though <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

If it ever actually gets to the take it to the tip stage let me know as it would be a real shame to see the molds wasted like that. Unfortunately you would still get the job of finding out how much it would be to freight them to WA as I'm sure they'd need to know weight, size etc. Having said that I have only ever built a ply catamaran from plans...does the 430 have any? Cheers Nick

Na, no plans sorry and the weight of the moulds is extreme.

Mate I apreciate your interest and concern but really the thing is dead.
Thanks all the same,

Bern.

berny it sounds like you deserve a pat on the back, by the looks of it great concept, great boat, fantastric effort you have put in to getting all togerther not your fault people are so crapathetic,


i have a few quistions though, why is the windrush going strong and yours (which i think a much better boat) isn't ?

how much faster (on a handicap system) is it than the windrush and how much slower than a blade or a TheMightyHobie18?

i still think there is a market just needs somone with serious money to through at the marketing, to get a class going then everyone would be as impressed with these little boats as i am, and i have not even seen one like the mini (car) in the 60's because all the cool models, royals, musicians, film stars had one

For of all why would anybody sink a large sum of money in a sailing catamaran class ? What would be the benefit to that person. He (or she) will be very unlikely to recover it and it won't give him much respect amonh his peers. But maybe even more importantly you will set your class up to failure, because what happens when such a sugar daddy gets bored and moves on. With the whole class depending on the efforts and money of one person, it will be very vunerable. I'm thinking US 18HT class and the "very rich guy with a promo plan" there. It went like crazy in 2002 and 2003 and then it ... collapsed within 6 months.

Wouldn't a more interesting question be on how to get the F14 class grow without hoping some miracle guy will come along and solve all the issues ?

Wouter

Valid points Wouter, But there is the one big exception IE NACRA was started in just such a way - by a "suger daddy" - and look at it now. Still those were VERY different times as far as sailing in general is concerned and for off the beach catamarans in particular.

Sorry, I haven'y been watching this or any other forum lately so I've missed these last posts.
Thanks for the 'pat on the back' ric, it is appreciated.

The 430, sailed sloop is about 10 minutes in a 100 faster than a foam super sloop Windy and about 15 minutes F14 rigged with me [a 66 y/old] at the helm weighing 85kgs. Probably a bit faster with an athletic gun sailer pulling the strings.

Wouter, there's only one thing stopping the advancement of F14 and thats the complete apathy, even resentment of the class by people like yourself who, though having considerable world wide influence, have insufficient vision for the future of otb catamaran racing to get behind a class which has the potential to bring new YOUNG blood into the sport. It's as simple as that!
Your question; "Why would anyone get behind the concept" speeks volumes.

Yeah ! That is it !

When you can't reach critical mass on your own (efforts) then there surely must be some outsider actively working against you.

What a BS. If you can't make it on your own then that is because you can't make it. Maybe some other people can but then the current F14 enthousiasts need to find these.

Wouter

Who on earth has ever reached 'critical mass' on their own??

And nobody said that you are working against F14, just that you totally ignor/disregerd it and are apathetic [get a dictionary] toward it. Many seem to resent the idea that a new class might upset the 'status quo' so they do nothing. Reality is cat racing is in the decline. It's even being considered as redundant as an olympic event. Some of that is because there's no new blood comming in at the bottom. Cat racing at present, is mostly an old blokes sport. Kids are seldom accomodated in the main, which is really too bad. Something needs to be done if it is to grow and another 16 footer with spinnaker isn't the answer. You're not going to see a bunch of 14 year olds racing an F16, F18, Tornado, A class,......

Tell me this wouter, who in the world has made any effort toward encouraging young sailors to take up cat racing since Hobie Alter?? Where's your plan for the future of the sport in this regard???



Not everyone does things purely for monitory gain Wouter. Lots of people see a bigger picture. Some even reason that a new class, which might introduce young sailors to the sport, may have lots of beneficial side effects for the sport, making more money among them. A new hight tech 14ftr might just encourage young ppl to take up cat racing. What if every cat club in the world owned a decent 14ftr and made it available to their new recruits, wouldn't that be terrible.

No respect among peers? What the heck is that??

Berny

There was quite a discussion about youth sailing earlier in the year revolving around F12 to some extent, in that time I found it wasn't feasable to have extra classes in our club. I have bought 2 x 420's for the kids to sail which has encouraged 3 other 420's to be purchased and will sail shortly. So now due to a small start we have a 5 kids boat fleet in a club where we only have 7 adult boats racing. Don't loose heart in the 14 berny because the kids generally find the speed of the 420 boring and want their own A. Our aim as a club is to tip them into Cats as soon as they are big enough the biggest problem really is the cost so keep those molds somewhere safe because our club now has 17 kids under 15 wanting a fast boat like the adults. Before sending them to the tip I would take them and store them for others and hopefully build a number for our club. I know you are going to hate this question but as a cheap entry into cats for a 420 owner, would the hulls perform reasonably with the mast and sails off the 420? until the kid was big enough and the adult financial enough to go to the full F14 rigging. regards Jeff

That's good news Jeff. Glad to see someone is looking to the future here in Oz anyway. Good stuff.
The club I race at is essentially a mono club and cats are tolerated only just. We have a fleet of about 14 cats sailing most Saturdays.
I did buy a small training cat which was stored in the club but only a couple of young blokes used it and then while I was away for a coupla seasons it disappeared.

I guess anything is possible, though I have to say that the 430 at 2.4m beam is a very stable platform and very well behaved. A small headsail would probably give a crew something to do other than help to hold the boat down if it was sailed two up. Spinnaker is optional.
I'm selling our house soon so the moulds will probably end up going to the tip when that happens.
Darryl is closer to you guys and I'm sure he'd be happy to help you get something going.

Good luck with it,

Bern

Don't dump them Berny I will take them, I will try and build 4 or 5 for the club but I would build them with another layer of divinacell on the keel and under the deck deck for abuse by the kids and I would try and get kids to build them so they would be really usefull for getting kids into the ownership concept of boats and if there ever turned out to be a commercial use for them in the future you could have them back so your not wasting all that effort. When you are really serious about getting rid of them let me know and I will come and get them regards Jeff

Berny,

Whatever.

Just don't shove the blame for what ever happens or doesn't happy to the F14 in my shoes.

Wouter

I guess your earlier remark that you hadn't been following any of the forums accounts for this comment. Wouter's thinking on the development of youth sailing is well documented.

(Actually Wouter's thinking on most things is well documented! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

'Thinking' doesn't get it done and besides, he comes accross here with negative crap and we have enough of that happening without him laying in.

I'll keep you posted Jeff.

Hey Berny, a word of encouragement…

"If I had one person, just one, really interested in knowing more about the boat [there is one another boat being built as I speak], more than just a casual passing interest, I'd be enthused, but after SEVEN YEARS of racing and seldom being beat by any other 14, and that's without the kite, I'd be buoyed but realistically I've run out of time. I'm 66yrs old and it's time to other things."

Something to consider...you have put 7 years of your life into this concept, do you really want to walk away form it just when the rest of the catamaran world is starting to come around to the Formula format of cat racing? A format that might allow your design to thrive.
You say you are 66 years old and it's time for other things...are the “other things” you have in mind going to be as personally fulfilling as your cat design?
You have obviously laid the groundwork at a high price...do you really want to turn and walk away from all that?

Maybe the "other things" you speak of could be as simple as taking a different perspective on what you have already accomplished. Instead of seeking approval from others, the secret is enjoying the process of conceiving and actually turning into reality, the dream of a better 14’ catamaran. You write as a man beaten and disillusioned. From the description of your boats performance it has been an unqualified success. You have let the lack of acceptance by the masses strip you of the joy you should have experienced in making a personal dream a reality. Celebrate the unique creative spark that God put in you and don’t let your joy hinge upon the approval of others. The masses lack any vision regarding their own lives, what makes you think they will see and understand the vision that is uniquely yours?

It appears as if there may be a chance of breathing new life into your dream. Instead of abandoning your project, perhaps it is just time for the next chapter. A combination of your groundwork, experience and vision along with Jeff’s energy and
ability to get a group of kids interested in sailing at his cub might be just the catalyst. Stay closely involved with your boats evolution, it is your child ( so to speak), nurture it, don’t throw away the countless hours dreaming, conceiving, along with the blood sweat and tears that culminated into your exceptional boat.… a more fulfilling realization of your dream may be just around the next bend…

Best Regards,
Bob

I guess you haven't looked at the discussions I was alluding to. It's unfortunate that you chose to interpret Wouter's original critique as a sign of resentment and apathy. With a little more insight you might have recognized that he was actually offering some sage and constructive advice and I guess could have been a source of much more.

Best of luck with your project if you choose to pursue it.

Thanks Seeker, you are kind.
Mate, it's the disapointment that the boat may never become a new class, not the boat it's self that I'm unhappy about. I still race it every Saturday arvo [afternoon] at a local club and, except that there's not a lot of competition there, I win by 10mins plus most days, I really enjoy the boat. I have actually gotten a lot out of designing, building and racing it and although it's difficult to justify the cost, it has been a great journey and I'm not sorry I did it. At least I'm not going to die wondering.
I also have a very supportive and understanding wife which helps.

Yes I think it's time to fully let go and give Jeff a chance to do something useful with it.
Jeff, PM me and we'll work on getting the moulds to you.

Mark, I've read a lot of Wouters stuff over the years and mostly, I have great admiration and respect for his abilities, but try as I might I don't see anything possitive in his response here, in fact quite the reverse. And it doesn't help much, that on this issue, I tend to have glass toes. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Berny

Like Berny, I to am a little disappointed by the “penetration” that the F14 has made on the market place, as far as numbers sailing go. That is not to say that there hasn’t been great interest in the concept and in the F14’s that are sailing, (I have personally posted out over two thousand DVD’s of the AO F14 sailing to people, world wide, who have requested them, and always with very positive feed back from them after they have viewed them)
Personally I have always considered that the most demanding AND rewarding sailing has always been on a cat around the 14’ size. This size requires that to perform well on the water a sailer has to concentrate to the utmost, as even a small error of judgement will drop you back in a fleet enormously. This is a size of boat that is not very forgiving of “mistakes”. It is a size that requires very good seamanship to sail it well, it is very hard to gain places on a 14’ but very easy to lose them and that is why it is such a great test of a sailers worth on the water. On larger cats, the same small errors that cost so dearly on a 14’ are not as noticeable to their overall performance. The weight placement on larger cats has far less of the immediate critical effect on performance and even the sail trim is not on the same “knife edge” of whether or not the cat goes or goes backwards in a fleet. Having said that, and having sailed (designed and built many myself as well) every size of “off the beach cat” that there is, it really has surprised me that when, two designs (at least) of F14 catamarans have been produced, and that have shown, over an extended period of time, to be FAR superior in all round performance, to any and all preceding 14’ cat(s) that have ever existed and yet there has not been at least, a moderate number of sailers prepared to “move into” the class. It is even more puzzling to me when I watch week after week two F14 Alpha Omega’s competing equally with cats that are much bigger and way more expensive, and many times (not always of course), the F14’s are finishing ahead of the bigger, more expensive cats, over the line. Just look at the current comparative Yachting Victoria yardsticks to get an idea of just how competitive the F14’s are. In all humility, I have to ask, JUST WHAT DO THE SAILING PUBLIC WANT?
That is not to say that I have any regrets for designing and building the Alpha Omega F14, for like Berny, it has fulfilled my personal desire to “take the 14’ cat” to a place that I felt it could go but where few, if any one else was prepared to put their “money where their mouths were”.
I don’t think that the F14 is dead, I think that it’s time is not quite here yet – but it WILL come -

I believe the F14 will find its public after an even smaller kids' cat becomes available.

It is unlikely that a kid who started in an Optimist would upgrade to an F14. It is also unlikely that more experienced sailors "downgrade" to an F14, regardless the higher skill requirements. When going small they seem to want simplicity (Wave).

I only see kids who start in a smaller cat upgrading to the F14 as they grow heavier (and the F16, Tornado, etc. later on).

Think about it: there would never be a strong 29er or Laser class without a strong Optimit class to feed them. That's why if you want a strong F14 class, first you must support the F12 or another entry cat for kids.

By the way, I have doubts regarding the name "F12".

The Optimist could have failed if it was named "Pessimist", "Storm" or "Rocket". Those names tend to scare parents, who ultimately decide what entry boat their siblings will sail.

At least for me, "Formula" is associated primarily with Formula 1 car races, high speed, high technology - and very famous accidents. It is cool for the upgrade boat (F14, F16, etc.), but I'd rather use a name that inspires only positive thoughts and confidence.

"KidCat" wouldn't be bad: it's short, easy to say, meaningful and evocates the close relationship between a kid and its pet (= home). KidCat delivers the message that it is a cat designed and intended for kids. This line of thought runs paralel to a kid's toy, implying fun, safety and simplicity. The name says it all. Just my opinion, naturally.

Luiz,
I know both Berny and Darryl. I have seen first hand how both Berny's 4.3 and Darryl's Alpha perform and they
are both far and away superior to any other 14 ft boat
out there. They really are both great boats.

I think you make a very good point.
"I only see kids who start in a smaller cat upgrading to the F14 as they grow heavier"
While I agree with your statement I do not wish to infer
that the F14 is not suitable for adults. The challenge is convincing the market they should embrace the F14.
A longer route to that destination may be to to develop
the market from the beginning by making cat sailing more accessable to children at a very young age so they
develop into cat sailors.

I have always thought that we needed to develop a complete range of quality boats.
Not just any old thing that satisfies some basic
measurements like we have now.
Each design has to be quality in every way in order to catch them young and train them to be life long cat
sailors.

This new rang of boats needs to take into account ease of handling onshore, and therefore the weight of the boat is critical, as well as the time to rig, cost, handling on
the water and asthetics.
This was my general line of thinking when I first started working on a 12 ft design.
It had to be a very simple boat to rig to take up little to none of the parents time in rigging etc. and keep costs right down which would make it more appealing to the family budget.
Light weight so it can easily be moved around etc.
Since intrducing Wouter to this initial concept including the free standing rig he has pushed the concept more towards an older childs boat.
I firmly believe we should be getting the 12 ft boats into the hands of 7-12 yr olds.
Possibly use what Wouter's thinking about as an interim step between this and the F14. No doubt many individuals that would walk this path would not go past the F14
once they get there.

I think this is more about developing the market through more approariate and marketable designs.
I see the boats developed by Darryl and Berny to be a part of the whole strategy.

If this could be made happen I believe it would be a great boast to the sport in general.
I just think if we can put really good quality designs into the hands of the very young they will be more inclined to stay with the sport and continue to grow and develop as
cat sailors.

This is just the way I see it.

Regards,
Phill

Fully agreed, Phill.

New cats today target adult sailors mostly - and in the long run this is a big mistake.

A school without kindergarten depends on other kindergartens to "feed" students to its first grade. It works well while they recommend that specific school to parents, but the school shrinks if they don't. Or worse, it may go bankrupt.

Likewise, we can't depend on teachers from the Optimist or Laser class to recommend cats as the next boat for their students.

The solution is, as you wrote, an entry level cat targeting the same market niche that is currently monopolized by the Optimist class.
-Then we need at least one cat designed for sailors who started at the entry level cat and got too heavy or too old - the F12!
-Then we need a third and bigger one - the F14! The fourth is not a problem: more than enough alternatives exist nowadays.

This range should also include other 11 to 15ft cat classes, but not too many. The Hobie Wave is already there as a cruising option.

But still: without an excellent entry level cat, catsailing remains dependent on monohull-trained sailors willing to try cats, old windsurfers or kiters searching for something less physically demanding while almost as thrilling, etc.

A one design kids' cat is prioritary. I believe it should be about the size of an Optimist, rigged with a more efficient sail, faster (can't be different) but safer, easier to assemble and cheaper.

I'll invest some time/money in this idea as soon as my ("almost ready") boat is finished.

Back to the name: Entry Level Cat = ELC or ELCat or El Cat (too Spanish?)

Jim Boyer, built a nice little mini Taipan a few years back. Bill Nocoll and Ian Marcovich did a nice small 14 that was easy enough to handle. Hobie has the Bravo.

It's hard to know just what would work given that these have all been offered in the last 10 years and none of them have been that successful.
I would have thought that any progressive cat club would have a couple of Hobie Brovo's as trainers.

The paper Tiger is also a great little training boat with lots of good gear to learn about but is mostly only sailed by older guys???

I have no idea?????

.



Berny

Hey Berny I missed this post until now, thanks for the offer of the moulds I'll PM you now. Its exciting to think that a kid that starts with a heavier version would seek to build your original version, as he/she got older and could just keep improving the platform or upgrading to quality components knowing that their next boat will be an F14. One day when they get real serious they would probably look into the commercial world and pay a professional to build the hulls maybe even you! The main thing is keeping juniors interested in cats, its tiring doing it but rewarding.
many thanks again Berny
regards

The starting point is not the boat design itself, but a work plan.

The start of the work plan is a market survey. We should start surveying kids, parents and teachers in the Optimist class what they'd expect and like to see in a modern boat to replace the Optimist.

The goal is to compete with the Optimist in the same market niche, so we should think and act as developers of a new entry boat to replace -with advantages- the old monohull trainer.

One example of a common design mistake: kids sail "inside" the Optimist and "over" cats like those in the photos. I bet parents prefer a boat where kids can duck inside. They don't like the idea of kids falling in the water when bumped by others - which happens all too often in the begining.

So, we start surveying the target market. As resuts start to materialize, and if the project seems feasible, we shoud atract the big cat manufacturing companies. They will have to cooperate with each other and with the new class to make their total market grow. Reason: ultimately, they will be the main economic beneficiaries.

Only then can a complete project be developed. But by project I don't mean a boat project: the project must include at least the class rules (especially with regards to construction); a global marketing plan based on the need to update the Optimist and, only then, the boat itself.

What some may not like is the inclusion of big manufacturers in the elaboration of the class rules, marketing plan and boat plan. They master their business and the constraints for serial production and sales better than we do, so this is necessary, in my opinion.

Work plan - first draft:

1-Survey
2-Concept definition
3-Feasibility study
4-Class rules
5-Marketing plan
6-Boat design

In paralel:

a) Creation of a core group to start the class.

b) Atraction of the main cat builders around the world. This probably means two US companies, two or more European companies and other smaller companies from around the world (Australia, New Zealand, China, etc.)

c) Atraction of the main cat classes organizations, like the Tornado, A Class, Hobie 16, F16, F18, etc. They are also beneficiaries from the entry level cat.

d) Class creation.

Luiz, I think your systematic approach is good, but you should also make sure first that others who might work with you (and I'm purely an observer here) agree with your basic premise that the objective is to compete in the same market as the Optimist. I'm not sure that that's what others here are thinking. 14' is a huge amount of boat for a kid of the size that sails an Optimist. I think you also need to develop a clear understanding of how the concept relates to possible F12 development. Regardless of whether you are trying to complement or compete with it, people should know what the intention is.

How do parents just buy a $12000 new small cat and turn their little novice loose on it. It is going to come into the beach one day with boards down, it will bounce around in the swell on its side for a while the kids must be encouraged to tip it and right it whenever they think of it. The problem for the manufacturer is they probably have to build and market a boat at a loss to bring through dedicated young sailors. The 420's I have fit the bill they are robust easy to fix easy to right great starter boat. First thing I tell kids and novice adults is dont worry if you break something I'll fix it so the pressure is off them. Imagine a young sailor starting on a 14 cat then offering them the 420, they would never sail again! The advantage the mono has is Olympic class and that encourages the kids even if they don't make it, its the dream so first the cat maufacturers have to get young backsides on boats then with numbers comes the statistics to get cats in the Olympics. Kingston has 9 cats sailing there are now 7 private 420's and 7 school owned 420's in the town. All of our kids are sailing mono's what sort of statistic is that to present to the Olympic federation. The manufacturer with the long term patience to partly sponsor kids into boats should earn every cat sailors gratitude and support.
regards

Mark,
I'm certainly not talking about a 14 ft boat for a 7-12 yr olds.
It's more like a max of 12ft and would be in competition with the Optimist.

I assume this is what Luiz is also referring to but I could be wrong.
We were talking about a boat to feed the F14 class.

In fact it may feed the class that feeds the F14 class as I beleive the need is for a range of boats to bring kids up to boats such as the F14.

My original idea was to design a 12ft Blade with a free standing rig for young kids 7-12 yrs or up to 60kg.

Jeff,
This boat would be very simple.
I will only have hulls,beams,tramp,mast,sock luffed sail with batterns, mainsheet, tiller and rudders.
No other parts. All aimed at keeping the costs and rigging time down.

It will have skegs and be light enough for kids to drag around the beach on its skegs which are part of the hull moulding.

It is designed to be grown out of.
Because if they can't grow out of it, it is too big for the young ones in the first place.

Regards,
Phill

I agree with Phil on this, I teach children in Optimists, at my club we have around 50 kids sailing them on a Monday night, my older children 5,8 and 10, all sail optimists. So selfishly I want the F12 to be a boat for them. I get the feeling that Wouter also wants the boat to be for him!

Ultimately I believe the hulls should be rotomoulded. Sorry to mention the plastic word on this forum.

Have you seen the Open Bic? I bet that this is the future of Kids monohull sailing. They start off with an Optimist rig on this boat and then add the Bic rig for more performance. Can't we do tis with the Kids F12.

http://www.openbic.com/

Gareth

That certainly makes sense Phill, but the morphing of the thread has been a little subtle. Luiz's post was a reply to Berny, who was talking about a couple of 14' boats. I just want to make sure people aren't misunderstanding each other here (yeah I know that's hard to imagine on catsailor, but it could happen!).

Sorry for diverting from the F14 subject - it created some confusion. You are 100% right on your assumption.

Sounds like a good idea Phill. When do we start??? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Berny

Phill I can see the sense of a smaller boat, would a 12 carry an adult safely to instruct a kid and would a novice adult feel comfortable
regards

The first cat that Windrush made (and their highest number of sales) was a 12' "surf cat". Cheap, strong, great fun for kids or for TWO adults. They were used for years also for "off the beach" hire fleets - always sailed with at least one adult (for hire) and often with two adults and one or two kids (even though with more than one adult on board they suffered obviously with performance), but they did bring many many new people into sailing catamarans.
In the mid to late seventies I used to hire out a fleet of 30 of them over summer, off the beach here at Somerton/Brighton together with a 13’ cat that we made just for that business.

Darryl,
It was the 12 Surfcat by Windrush that we used at the sailing club. The kids loved them but they were rather dated in appearance. There are other small boats out there but the way I see it they all suffer the same drawbacks. From my perspective we need something today that looks fast sitting on the beach to market to both the kids and parents. It also has to work well and be convenient to rig and move around and not cost the world.

Regards,
Phill

Bern,
I have been working on and off on the design since 2003 and while ideas have been evolving they are pretty well settled now and I just need to bring it all together and draw it up
which I'd like to think I could do late next week.

I plan on using the same beams I extrude for the F16 because this boat will need proportionally larger beams.
I have a friend who has nearly finished a rather large CNC 3 axis cutter that could be used to make alloy moulds for the
boards and even cut out kits if need be down track.

Getting the free standing rig to work will be the most interesting and most exciting part of the project.

I can make the sails for the rig and already have a basic design that needs to be fine tuned during the prototyping process. Still do not have a mast but that should not be too hard as the sail has a luff pocket so just need round tube that does not fail.
I think I have enough foam left over from the F18 plug to make a 12 ft plug.
I'm in the middle of another project which needs to be sorted before I can actually do anything meaningful.
Happy to talk to you about it anytime.

Regards,
Phill

Jeff,
The hulls would certainly have the buoyancy the restriction on the weigh is more to do with the free standing rig lifting the windward hull. So I suppose it is more performance related.

Regards,
Phill

Thanks Darryl and Phill I'll watch your 12ft ideas, do you have a price you are trying to work to?
regards

Gareth,
I did consider two rigs.
If used in a sailing school it would be very handy and not very expensive addition. Just an extension that plugs into the mast and a different sail.
I agree, that to get the cost of the boat cheap enough for the family budget rottomoulding could be an option.
I don't suppose it is something that you'd consider before
confirming the existence of a good market.

Do you have any idea of the tooling costs?

Also I'd really like to be able to do some weight calculations on RM hulls.
In foam sandwich the hulls would be around 11 to 12 kg each max and could be as low as 10kg because they are so simple. I'd love to know the weight of an equivalent rottomould hull.

The hulls will not have the normal high loadings from bridle etc because the free standing rig will transfer the loading through the front beam. They just need reasonable tortional strength between the beams although sheeting from the ends of the rear beam instead of the centre will help a little with this.
While RM may be needed it would be a shame because it just isn't a nice as foam sandwich.

Regards,
Phill

Phill,

The cost of rotomoulding is a tricky one, most rotomoulded tooling is cast aluminium, traditionally the castings are quite complex and therefore expensive. However rotomoulded tooling can also be fabricated, that means you can make it by welding together sheets of aluminium. This in turn means that if you know the right people you could probably fabricate tooling for any boat that could traditionally be made in marine ply relatively cheaply. Although tortured ply designs would require more skill to fabricate than developable surfaces. I guess this is your field of expertise. Sorry I haven’t mentioned any real numbers. I have a friend who is a rotomoulder so I can get some real numbers for you next week.

The next thing to do is find a rotomoulder as you will then need to add the jig fixtures to your tooling and they may be specific to the rotomoulder.

The next issue is weight, I guess the average hull would be 5mm thick polyethylene which has a density of 1g/cc so an F12 with a surface area of 4m2 would weigh 5x1x4=20kg, When you get into more complex rotomoulding that uses foamed polyethylene cores you may get down to 14kg but this gets more expensive to produce. Because polyethylene is no where near as stiff as GRP foam sandwich you may need to tweak the design a little to add stiffening ribs like the Dart 16 has.

All the best

Gareth

Phill,

In all kindness I feel that this is a good time to suggest further and deeper analyse your idea's.



Your idea's, like this one, have been tried in other classes already and found wanting. The lasers tried this trick with the 4.7 rig and found that it was insufficiently controllable. They now sell a complete different mast and sail combination for the 4.7 version then is used by the radial and standard version.

Rotomoulding. Do the math and find the reason why the 3.95 mtr long Hobie wave (115 kg) actually weights more then a F16. Rotomoulding hulls are not lightweight by any stretch of the imagination.





I know you hate my push rod setup but there is a very good reason why it is there. You can't just have the beam lift the hulls out of the water. As you know yourself even the 80x2 is very bendy when held on one end while the other end is lifted. The reason why say an F16 platform is so stiff despite this flexibility is the result of how the forces are actively working against one another. This aspect of your design really needs some closer analysis. There are some pittfalls here that your current design doesn't address yet.





That is not true. Interestingly enough is will actually increase the bending of the from beam under the mast step loading. Like I said there are some interesting things going on here.


I'm sorry, you are not "a week away" from completing the design.

My flame suit is on, so everybody feel free to "give it to the Dutch guy we all love to hate"

Wouter

Just as info.

My F12 hull has a total surface area of 5 sq. mtr. and when it is made out of 4 mm ply it will weight 17.5 kg per hull. From 5 mm thick Polyethylene it will weight at least 25 kg per hull, but probably more because of the stiffeners. Polyethylene is surprisingly flexible. They aren't calling the Dart 16's tupperware boats for nothing. The sides of the earlier versions do indeed feel alot like tupperware. Feeling the hull wobble underneath you will sailing is not a reinsureing experience.

Wouter

Wouter,
It's interesting that you feel the need.

Aaah well.......

Regards,
Phill

Wouter,

Unless you have changed your designs from the ones that you asked me to draw up for you then you might be pleased to hear that the surface area of your hull is 4.3sqm.

To be honest no-one really refers to modern rotmomoulded boats as tupperware boats anymore, rotomoulding has come on along way in recent years. Most mass produced dinghies are made this way. The computer controlled molds can do some amazing things such as creating much lighter stiffer boats by using foamed polyethylene between solid skins. They can form thicker sections locally and contain stiffening members. Although they won't be as light as ply or GRP sandwich they are much better than you are making out.

Most holiday companies and rental companies won't entertain the idea of a boat made from any other process. This "feeling the hull wobble underneath you" is just nonsense.

All the best

Gareth

bulkheads

Wouter

Gareth,
I'd be interested to learn what I can about rotomoulding.
I have another project for which I think it would probably be ideal.

Regards,
Phill

No Sorry you can't have them with the rotomoulding process. Hollow hulls only.

Start adding much more weight then as the bulkheads really do firm up the hulls.

I refer back to my point. The reason the Hobie wave and other roto stuff is soo heavy is because of the decision to go rotomoulded.

Wouter

Phill I sent you an email last week about rotomoulding if you need to know more email me at gareth(at)fourhulls.com

All the best

Gareth

We already have two very nice [if I say so myself] 14ft cats in the 430 and the AO. The problem is not so much with the length, [12ft or 14ft makes little difference], but with functionality. In this regard, weight and sail area are more critical. What is more desirable, a 12ft roto moulded heavy slug or a 14ft glass/resin rocket which is already available = no development costs?
These current boats could be offered with optional rigs. Say a smaller rig for entry level which can be replaced with a full size cat rig to keep pace with sailor skill levels and on going through to full blown F14 rig, all on the same platform. Has to be more appealing to the funds provider to have a boat which could be campaigned over an extended period.
We could make provision for these 'tuned down' versions in our 14ft regattas, which brings up another important point. Where will these boats be sailed other than at 14ft regattas [two only in Oz I'm aware of] or club level?
It's totally useless to make a 12ft or 14ft cat available if there's nowhere to race the things.

Cat sailors generally, are only interested in bigger boats and can't really be bothered with small cats at regattas. And it gets worse with the current trend to run only windward leeward courses for the 'formula' boats which leaves non spi boats with nowhere to race!
Small cats have always been looked on with disdain here and I don't see much happening in the near future to change that.

Berny

Except not having a multihull in the Olympics, partially as a consequence of not supporting an entry level cat.

Yep if were not bringing juniors through on cats and just poaching them off dinghys when we can, were killing off our own class
regards

Gareth,
Thankyou for the info. Sorry for not getting back to you , been rather busy.
I will get back to you for more info when I'm a bit closer to the project I have in mind.

Thanks, again.

Regards,
Phill

Entry level cat?
= Optimist or Sabot.
Every cat club should have a fleet of these.

Here it is already done and dusted and when they get off this they can go to F14.

What is it? A Hobie Thing? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Every club should have at least some of theese F12 cats <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
http://www.gust.ax/gallery/f12/08-06-25/
http://www.gust.ax/gallery/f12/08-09-25/

I have been participating to the F12 class in the way I have been building two protos on the designs of Scarecrow and Ncik. What has become quite obvious to me is that there is a need for a modern entry cat even for the adults. Many adults would like to sail the F12, but it’s a little bit to small if you are over 70 kg. The more or less max displacement of that boat is 120kg (the ready to sail platform weight just under 50 kg). The two extra feet would give the displacement needed and it would be possible for a reasonable price to homebuild a modern cat ready to sail for say around 3000USD.

And I see we have come full circle on this aspect of the F12. It is not an issue to increase the bouyancy of the hulls to carry heavier adults on a F12. Sadly, some people (but not you Gato) were very vocal about making it a kiddies class and going for even more lightweight low volume hulls.

Now they have won and split a significant customer section off the F12 class, the group that actually holds the money !

I say lets revise the F12 concept to include these adults and let go of the "just for kids" mindset once and for all !

A man shouting in the desert,

Wouter

Back to the F 14 high performance Berny / Darryl designs and attracting new sailors. I have seen a lot of new people buy an old H16 and love it until the first capsize, and then I never see them again. I think fear of capsizing is quite intimidating. Perhaps, offer a full race platform with a significantly de-powered uni rig and an optional snuffer loaded with something more like a gennaker that most any one can safely sail and learn to sail and have fun. Let them drool as the fully compliant F 14s go screaming by. At anytime they can upgrade to the fast and exciting and wet sail plan.

I’m thinking absolutely in the same direction as you, and it’s more or less what I’m going to do. Build a modern platform, but make it more easy to transport, rig and sail. As I’m doing a lot of raid sailing, camping on the tramp for the night I don’t want to swim to much. And I honestly think there are more people like me, who would like a modern platform not to difficult to sail and at a reasonable price.

or can the F12 be lengthened by say 8" and the weight increased from 50 kilos to say 60-65 to allow for a bit more buoyancy and power? The drawback of 14' is requirement of a trailer for transport.

I don't see why you can't cartop a 14 feet cat as long as you are keeping the spar at max 6,5m. The cat on my car here is a Pixie 14 and the one on the trailer is a DS12

I've found 11 to 12 ft is ideal for a child to learn to sail properly but you cant beat fun and they seem to happily leave a couple of cats on the beach and laugh all day as a group on a 14ft

I have seen kids having great fun with the F12 cats, even going out at three. It’s probably the fastest craft intended for kids. Even adults are thrilled by this cat. That is also the reason why I see a need for a little bit bigger cat intended for adults, but who don’t want to spend the money for a racing cat. As it is not the hulls who are representing the expensive part of a cat...

What is holding back the F-14 cat from taking off (as well as catamaran sailing in general)? IMHO is the obsession with racing.

When I bought my first cat in 1975...a Hobie 14...racing was the last thing on my mind...I wanted to get out on the water...go as fast as I could, play in the surf and have fun. The boat was simply a tool to have fun.

I didn't obsess with tuning the rig...I didn't loose sleep at the thought of someone building a faster cat next week which would make my resale value go down...I wasn't concerned that some rich guy would "buy the race" because he could afford a boat built out of exotic materials...or whether the next guy had a carbon mast, carbon beams, glassed in beams, canted hulls, a taller mast or wider beam....I just went out and had fun free sailing...

All the above obsessions (and more) have sucked the fun out of sailing. Go back thru these forums and read the rabid discussions about length, beam, weight, mast height, hull materials, foils etc. Look at them from the perspective of a newbie looking in from the outside...there are a lot more people attracted at the prospect of having fun than there are "winning" a race.

Best Regards,
Bob

I agree completely whit you, we can just hope that the people thinking of a cat just for fun are not scanning this or any other forum with a related topic.
Still I understand the discussion here because here those who are most interested in sailing cats discuss. The experience gained by travelling around, showing and sailing my two F12 cats shows that there is a lot of interest for cat sailing outside the established cat sailing group. That is one of the reasons why I’m urging for a modern design but kept at a reasonable price. My intention is to build and sail a “cruising” version F14 cat next summer (in about 6 months).

gato
From my perspective the F-14 concept is far from dead...here is a picture of a long term F-14 project I am cooking up of my own with some valuable input from "friends"...it's a styrofoam plug so all things on it are subject to change...this is early picture of the basic hull shape before the deck and bottom shape were finalized. I love this medium since you can shape it full size and modify it easily either by taking away of adding more material.



Regards,
Bob

Nice looking hulls Bob. I love to race but I also love sailing in general and can see somebody buying a modern basic F14 to learn then adding spin's etc later if and when they want. They would never need to get a bigger cat and would be confident with it much sooner than an 18ft. We've had too much wind 5 weeks in a row here and for the last 2 weeks I've been taking the kids 14ft Arrow out and having a ball with no other boats on the water I only did it for a short but exciting time today because the wind turned off shore and the official wind put the gusts at 55km/h on land. The point is none of the bigger cats were even towed to the club I'm now selling my A and will sail an Arrow or Mozzie when I'm not on the Nacra. Gato did you see the pic I posted in Rolfs heating the workshop thread with my heatlights? Thats the bottom of the Arrow I'm sailing, that ones glass but I have a ply one as well, its dead flat, no dagger boards just a centreboard, it would be very easy to homebuild and I swear it planes, you can feel it get up to speed on a beam reach and then all of a sudden it takes off. Mind you it probably was ready to take off today while still on the sand. The Arrow has the same mast height as the F12 so your rigging could transfer
regards

Nice hull Seeker, We used to go windsurfing boards the same way. We are doing what a lot of people want to have, the question is how to get them on the marke for those not interested in homebuilding.
I saw the pics JeffS, nice cat, what is the total weight of that platform?

Arrow and Arafura Cadet specs are on the National (AUS) website
www.arrowarafura.com
Minimum Weight (hulls and fixed fittings) 50 kg
plans are $30
I like the idea of building the F12 and then if it gets outgrown building 14ft hulls to transfer the expensive bits over. The main sail area for the F12 is only 0.6m2 smaller than the Arrow, with its high aspect rig should work fine with the 2.6m2 jib. The Arrow has a metal framework for the centreboard which the kids and I don't like but it works unbelievably well and leaves the decks clear to sit on. When the kids go out they just pull the rope and cleat it like a dinghy and when they come back to the beach they release the cleat and the board comes up.
regards

On the F-14 site it states that the max beam is 8'-0"....is that still the case? Are all the other box rules still accurate? Darryl???
Regards,
Bob

Darryl...let me try this one more time...is the F14 max beam 7'-6" or 8'-0" ? On the F-14 web site it says 8'-0" on my A&O DVD it says 7'-6" Which is it? Your response would be greatly apreciated
Regards,
Bob

Darryl? Berney? Anyone out there? I guess that means I can set the beam width at anything I feel like when the time comes...works for me.

Maz beam for the F14 "class" is 8' - the max beam of the AO F14 is 7'6" as that is the beam that we calculated as being the best for all round performance for the Alpha. Just because the max beam allowable is 8' there is nothing wrong with being less than the maximum - just not over.

Thanks Darryl...I figured that if I went rouge I could elicit a response...LOL

Here is where I am at with my F14 project...Changed course from building a full fiberglass female mold to foam strip construction in a female wood jig...Put my foam plug to good use as I took templates off of it for my female jig. I have posted most of this on the homebuilt forum but thought I might as well put it here too since it does deal with a F14.

Best Regards,
Robert

Looks grate, is it your own design?

Thanks Gato...Yes it's my own design...tried to take inspiration from the latest offerings and run in my own direction with it. This design is definitly colored by my personal experience with high speed power boats and a couple decades of surfboard and sailboard design/construction.

As with every boat design, I build on a foundation of those who have walked a similar path before me and are generous enough to share their experience.

Best Regards,
Robert

Nice work mate, I'll follow your progress with great interest!!!
What is the min. weight of F14?

Thank you engineer...Here is a site that gives the F14 box rules.

http://www.formula14.yachting.org.au/

I'm going to build a F14 as I think it's the ultimate cat for me after building 2 F12:s and 2 F16:s. One is on the smaller side and the other too big 100kg+.
Still I think it's possible to end up around 60-65 kg for a F14 cat without using carbon.

Hope you will do your usual excellent photomentary of the build.

To take advantage of the most recent design trends I did a total revamp of my F14 design.
Including:
1) Broadening the hull from 9-1/2" to 14" wide
2) Completely changed the section shape
3) Add slightly more rocker profile

Almost finished with rebuilding the jig...here is the Starboard side Jig roughly completed…


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I like the look of that! Are you planning on building in wood or foam/glass?

Thanks Jalani...Foam and S2 glass/Kevlar, I already have the fabric...went to buy the 3/8" H80 Divinicell from my usual supplier (Merritt Marine In Palm Beach) and they said it would take 3 months to get it here from Europe...They just put in an order and their whole order is taking that long...Merritt is a major wholesaler to the Marine Industry down her in South Florida. Haven't been able to find another source (Divinicell or Corecell) that is not a couple of thousand miles away with $200+ shipping for the 7 sheets I will need.

I went ahead and ordered it from Merritt, but now I am kind of dead in the water...trying to find the lay-up schedule for a carbon version of the aluminum superwing in the mean time...

Finally got the divinicell cut and routed...got a bit of a start on the first half of the first hull.



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Glad to see you're back into it. I like the jigs you've built - they look very neat. Please keep us lazy voyeurs up to date with progress.

Thanks John for the complement...this build is going to have to go in spurts, as time permits. Tackled the tight chine radius this morning...worked well considering the compound curve the strips were required to make.


Worked on the sheer this evening...so all the basic foam for one half of one hull has been glued in place....the epoxy/glass bubbles were too wet on the new work to trim the foam tight to the jig.



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Edge trimed closer... and stood right side up you can get a better look at what she is going to look like. Because the photo was taken at 45 degree angle, it is a little out of perspective, its leaner than it looks here...click on the photos for larger version...



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Update...foam for both half's of hull #1 glued up...slow but steady progress. Couldn't resist popping one of them out of the jig and weighing it...as you can see 6 lbs 12 oz for one half of a hull...foam only.



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Seeker, you might want to make yourself known here, there are a whole lot of people looking to buy your boat.

Scarecrow, thanks for the heads up...that's an interesting thread they have going on over there about building a rigid wing for a 14'-16' Cat or Tri...

A topic I was interested in exploring. With the cost of a carbon mast and a set of new sails being so high, it is very attractive to weigh the advantages of a rigid wing.

One of the most attractive aspects of it is the possibility of building the sail as well as the boat itself...

Seeker, do you have much to spare in your weight budget? Given most of it can be built from scraps in your build a wing could turn out quite cheap. Particularly if you're happy not to twist the first section.