I put some telltales on my spin (about 15 inches back from the luff about 1/3 and 1/2 up the luff) and I can get them to fly for only a brief second before the spin folds excessively and tries to collapse. I, of course, then sheet in and the collapse doesn't happen but then the telltales aren't streaming. Should I move them further back? My luff tension seems good (fist 60-90 degreees or so) but should I try to get it tighter... or should it be looser? I guess I could just loosen the halyard to see (didn't think of that until right now really) but I am interested in people's opinions.

Try this; with the spinnaker on the ground, spike each corner into the grass so it doesn't move around. With a tape measure, measure the distance from the head of the spinnaker to the first tell tale. Then measure the distance from the luff of the spinnaker to the sticky where this tale is attached. Carefully now, place one hand on the spinnaker whilst gripping the tell tale with your right hand and pull sharply until the tell tale is free from the spinnaker. Repeat with the other one. Problem is now solved. (seriously, I hate tales on spinnakers ;-) They're distracting from the things you should be focused on...like keeping the luff just on the edge of collapse for maximum flow (all you can do is all you can do - tell tale or not).

Jake,
I understand your take on it. I have been crewing a lot recently and the spin on that boat can be pretty touchy (small curl turns into big REALLY quickly). Having the tales flying tells me I can stop letting it out/breathe rather than letting it out all the way to the point at which is curls a little- which quickly becomesa big one. I guess that is what I am looking for. Playing the spin really helps the speed downwind and having a little extra info helps. This is from a crew perspective downwind- the driver has the main and trav and all I am doing is driving the spin. Playing the spin alot sailing solo on the blade gets tiring but it is fast. You can really feel it pull when you let it breathe more.

Rereading your reply- if the tales are flowing are you going to get anymore out of the spin by then taking it to the point of having that curl? Or, going back to my original question- I guess with my spin the tales flying equals luff curl. Maybe some spins have more of a "sweet spot" than others.

I often crew myself, so I know where you are at. Different spinnakers will certainly behave very differently. The F18 spinnakers are evolving into flatter and flatter kites and as they get flatter, they fly much easier and are more sensitive to small adjustments of the sheet (you can capture a big collapse very easily and quickly). So yes, I agree that different spinnakers have larger or smaller sweet spots.

I see your dilemma on the F16, I really feel that if the skipper is looking at the spinnaker, he/she is getting wildly distracted instead of hunting for speed and letting the crew trim the kite. Of course, singlehanded, you have to keep an eye on the spinnaker. I suspect, however, that once you get some more time on the boat, you will develop a feel in the helm that will tell you how the spinnaker is trimmed without ever looking at it.

I played may Mystere 4.3 last weekend in 7 races. It was more by feel to me than anything. Telltales really didn't help me much. I just pulled in till the boat really move then just pumped it. Still learning, BUT boy was it a ride.

Doug

OK here goes, I'm feeling vulnerable but....
I'm now thinking that when single handing the F14, I might try sailing the boat with the spi sheet cleated and
work the main with the tiller. In all the sailing I've done with spinnaker [offshore] the main is eased to reduce pressure never the spinnaker as when the kite collapses it just takes too long to reset and too much time is lost, plus if the main is on too hard you can't bear away in heavier stuff without easing because the rudders cavitate. And resetting the main if you're on the wire with the spi sheet and tiller is a tricky manouver.
Most supersloop sailors cleat their jib, and really, the spi on th 430 isn't all that big.
My thinking is that the kite has a sweet spot which is best achieved while sailing a particular heading, if you're looking for best VMG that is, particularly when the reach is a bit shy.
I might add that with the sheet cleated on the back of the dagger board it is failry readily available for a quick dump if necessary.

Now dump on me if you like. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Berny,

I went this route on my Inter 17 and it did not work. Having the kite right is so much more important. I just set the mainsail to roughly where it should be (always erring on the side of less tension than I think I need) and I will then lay the mainsheet on my lap/leg once out on the wire in case it needs a quick extra little tug one out and really heated up.

If the rudders are cavitating, the problem may well be there. Do they cavitate when you are trying to bear off, do you actaully need bigger or deeper rudders. Might you also consider the pole as well. Are you on Class Max pole length. I find that my Stealth (max class pole length) almost bears off automatically when a gust arrives.

I now (on the F16) cleat the mainsail and constantly play the kite. It never really stops - hard work, but fast. I also have a flat kite and this may also be an issue. Are you over tightinging the Spi halyard, this WILL pull any shape forward and make the kite collapse very quickly as there is a big change in camber up front.

O the F16 solo (when I keep count of the number of laps to be done) I find that after hoisting and I'll trim the spi a few times till I get good speed and then just leave the spi there and focus entirely on steering to maintain speed and not get into a collision with another boat. This seems to work rather well.

On my own boat I find that when singlehanding the accelleration can happen so quickly that you are often to late to sheet it in in time. Hence my method to find the sweet spot with good speed and focus entirely on not slowing and having to start all over again.

I agree with Jake, get rid of those spi telltales and develop the feel for spi sheeting. Or else just concentrate on the curling of the luff.

Also if your spi collapses to easily then your spi sheeting angle may be wrong. I've seen this many times now. The sheet pulls to much on the foot and not enough on the leech, this makes the luff very sensitive. Hoist the spi on a light air day (while pinning your boat to the ground) and sheet is properly, then tie a knot in the sheet and make a picture from the side and from some distance. Show it to me and I will immediately tell you if your sheeting angle is wrong.

With regard to F16 spi's, alot of sailmakers are have made the F16 spi's with the wrong clew corners needed the sheeting line to be repositioned. They are darn stubborn about it as we know of this issue for years now. The new Glaser series seems to have gotten the issue however and they appear to be correct straight out of the box.

Wouter

PTP, it sounds like your luff tension might be a little tight but as you mentioned, that's easy to fix, either ease the tack line or halyard just a few inches and see what that does for the curl.

As a rough guide, if you know you will be heading very high with the spin up, on the very edge of too high, easing the tack or halyard will flatten the entry and allow you to cary it a bit higher than a tight (curled) luff.

For everybody talking about playing the main I hope they mean with the traveler and not the sheet...

One thing I see with spinakers is the need to anticipate what's about to happen with your sail relative to what the boat is doing, or is about to do. For instance, when you take a puff or you turn up to heat the boat up, the boat is about to accelerate and that will move the apparent wind forward causing the chute to collapse. Anticipating that can make a big difference.

The same thing works the other way - if the boat is slowing down (drop in wind, where you are in a wave, getting ready to heat up), the spin is soon going to be over sheeted. Again, anticipating that can make a big difference.

The telltales can give you a rough idea of where you want to be, but looking at them too much will mean you won't be paying attention to the other things. It also means you;ll be reactive instead of proactive in regards to trim.

On the N-20 we'll get the jib set and leave it, and I'll often use the jib telltales as a guideline (just a guideline) to being on the proper heading to keep the boat moving. Can't often see the spin or the spin telltales, and if things are working as above they would be misleading to me anyway. But that's a two person boat. I call when I'm about to heat up or dig deep to help the crew anticipate.

I used to think that way, too - but I took some coaching and learned how to sheet in the puffs. I was startled at the effect and I've been doing it since. It takes timing, a fine sense of the puff and a good feel for the boat. Every time I feel like I start to get a handle on this cat sailing thing, someone shows me a new horizon.

I'm learning that new horizons come more frequently when you are short in stature.

I guess I have visions of splintered masts, but that also means there's wind. I'll play with the main sheet some if the wind is light to moderate to keep the top flowing, but I play the traveler more for the same effect (obviously no twist induced in the sail though) when it picks up. Once on full honk the main is left mostly alone.

Maybe some new things to try...

Thanks guys... good info. I will probably take the tales off and loosen the luff a little to see what that does for me. As for the sheeting angle, the boat I have has two points for mounting the rachet on the hull and I have the block on the forward one (maybe 1.5ft ahead of the shrouds). There is another about 4 (??) inches ahead of the shrouds. From looking at it the angle seems appropriate but I'll take some pics.
I will play with is some more tomorrow probably. I have been a sailing madman this week! Raced (crewed) over the weekend both days then took the blade out on sunday after the race was done. Sailed solo on blade yesterday. Work today then sail on the blade weds/thurs/fri and RTI (crewing, if one of the rudders gets fixed) on saturday. My hands hurt... but in a good way <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

While we are on the spinnaker topic, I noticed my leach was fluttering when I would sheet it tight and try to point with my spinn. I'm thinking maybe the mast head is too far aft, or the spin sheet block is too far forward but it's not adjustable, so it's got to be move the mast tip or maybe move the pole tip down to change the sheeting -down- angle at the block? I did not see a leach line to adjust the tension as you might have on a mono's spinnaker.

If the leach is fluttering, it's not tight enough.

So, either

1, Move the block forward to tighten it.
2, Move the pole lower to tighten it.
3, Add a leachline to your kite if this will correct it.
4, Add a twinning line so you can change the sheeting angle without moving the block.
5, The kite is FUBAR and you need to buy a new one.

If you sheet the spi too tight the leech curve becomes too large and will flutter no matter what you do, at least this is my experience. There is a reason you dont see large roaches on jibs, unless you count the AC boats with leech battens on their jibs..
Usually leech flutter is a sign of a spi sheeted too hard or a stretched leech. It is common that both leech and luff lines are installed, but they would be easy to install by yourself if you need them.

You wrote that you was trying to point. Going upwind? You can go quite hight with a spi, but you must flatten it by letting out on the tack or the halyard. Leech will flutter, but in weak winds it might be worth it if you are not going to A mark but are distance racing.

I find spi telltales very valuable on the Tornado. The luff curl is good, but the telltales are right in your face when going downhill. Funny that the olympic Tornado teams dont remove those attention grabbers from their spis <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
We trim the mainsheet in medium winds, but in strong winds we use the main traveller and steering.

I like having telltails on the spinnaker. I have used them since the beginning of sailing a cat with a chute. At first they are a bit tricky to sail to, I will admit. If they do not harm you, in sailing, why not just keep them on? I think that as you get better at sailing with the kite you will find that you can get the telltails to work. Pay attention to your sailing now then in 6 months, see if I am right. Steering and sheeting are pretty critical to be in sync. If you are sailing with a crew it will take a bit to get used to each other. Just tell them what you are trying to accomplish.

Sounds like your telltails are in approximately the right location. If you do not mind experimenting, I was told to put more telltails than I need on a sail and go out sailing. Figure out which ones work with the trim adjustments then take the ones that do not work off. I know this takes a commitment of time but it may be worth it to you. If telltails are too confusing, or worrisome, to sail with...it is better to sail without them.

I feel that telltails will show the adjustment before the luff will.

Later,
Dan

I guess part of my resistance to tell tales is that I had to listen to a skipper for 524 miles repeat "is the tale flowing up there?" - usually while on a monster tight reach and I'm working the sheet about every 3-5 seconds for all I'm worth to keep it on the edge (and yes, they were flowing)....I kinda built up a resistance for spinnaker tell-tales. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I sailed almost a whole season with a skipper yelling "Sheet-Trim- Sheet!" wonder who that was, do you remember who that was Jake????