Wikipedia:


Sounds like you guys need to store your raw aluminum extrusions indoors.

Mr Schneider,

Mr Miller is correct in his assertion that Hobie should never have allowed the open class in the first place. The reason is obvious, if Mr Miller doesn't like to admit it: allowing the open class in allowed sailors to directly, empirically that is, compare different makes of boats. And it became obvious that certain boats were just...BETTER.

Once Pandora's Box was opened, it was a worse mistake to try to close it, though. What should have been done was to immediately produce comparable product. It was a long while before the H-20 came out, and it took Europe to produce the H-Tiger. What's done is done, though, and Hobie is not in the business of the Hobie Way of Life, they're in business to make money. The Hobie Way of Life ain't gonna feed Mr Miller and his family. Or keep the Alter clan in the manner to which they've become accustomed up there in the Great Northwest.

(BTW, Mr Miller, it would not have been that much trouble to oversize a sailplan to match the I-20, would it? It's common knowledge that all the wind in the US is taken up by Congress and the great suck of Texas, therefore the US tends to have lighter airs to sail in.)

As best I can tell, any interesting boats Hobie is producing is pretty much Hobie Europe. I've seen the ads in the French/Aussie/Euro multihull mags. Hobie's got boats over there I'd never even heard of, and I bet most of the US hasn't either. There's a pity.

To Tiger Mike and all other Hobie sailors. I want to make an unreserved appology. We all sail cats for fun and excitement and much needed release of pressure and all sorts of other good reasons.
Good luck to you Mike and and your racing and to the dad who is trying to relax and treat his kids on the Hobie Getaway. There is nothing pretty about a boat snob and that is what I was being.
I beleive some of what I said about a need for better business practice but when I read back over this thread I am out of line.

Your Performance Cat list is incorrect.

Performance still produces the 5.0 (N500)
the 5.7 (N570)
and the 5.8 (N580)

Always one step ahead...

Well, I agree with Mark that the Open class didn't help Hobie; it probably helped the local fleets with turnout and manpower, though, and banning it has definitely hurt the local fleets and divisions for the same reason. Somehow the idea of "let's get all the cats togther for a bigger event and have more fun" turned into an issue of "participation is declining; let's not have anything to do with other boats and that will save us." Well, my dates may be off, but seems like the 17, 18, and 20 have all been killed since we went Hobie-only. Too little, too late, and addressing the effects and not the cause. Probably shouldn't have even brought this up, because it's all been said many times before, but is cetainly is ironic at the least. Clearly we're on the path for Hobie-only to be Hobie 16-only, and a lot of us saw that coming. I'm betting that Hobie 16-only is not going to improve participation...

Last week I did an all-Hobie open class regatta with a 14, 2 16s, 3 18s, and a 20. It was surprisingly competitive (all sizes won at least one race on handicap), although clearly not as competitive as the 15 boat A-Cat fleet at the same event. Is this the future of HCA events? When is HCA going to encourage and promote a Getaway class?

Still looking for an answer to an ealier question; is there an active European or Australian turnout in a two-man 18-20 foot non-spin boat?

Well gee wizz, better add the Hobie 12/3.5 and H21 to the list of discontinued.

The thing is, and why we us (or at least me) inland/Midwest racers wanted to stick our heads in the sand and not see this coming is that Hobie sanctioned racing is the best available. Lakes aren't typically big enough for distance racing, it's all cans. This physical constraint also makes setting long enough weather legs impossible, and higher than national average wind speeds prevail on the plains from the Gulf to the Canadian border. I said earlier it seems there's a kite allergy, better stated, the time and effort in setup (when traveling to events) and short/er legs doesn't seem worth the "hassle", added to the fact we're talking about (as Stephen aptly put it) weekend warriors.

Other than Hobie sanctioned the choices are scarce. You say step out and try another boat. That may mean leaving it at a yacht club and racing the same few boats every Saturday, like was said, a couple guys trade off winning, and one finishes DFL every time...sound enticing? With the Hobie events that go on here at least there's enough boats that you can have a race within a race, in the typical 10 to 12 boat H20 start. That's what keeps OD racing fun for most.

We're spoiled with the speed of the 20, going back to the, comparitively speaking, weight sensitive 16 is not a pretty option. Us baby boomers' kids are racing now, have crewed on and are even buying 20's, that's why it hurts. Again, like Stephen said, we've raised these kids to think Hobie is the best boat. A boat with an overlapping jib is 'our niche'.

We can ride this out for five years or more. Suppose that's long enough to figure out viable alternatives. My fear is the racing will fragment and die in the interim.

Both iterations of the Hobie-21, the SE and Sport Cruiser. Delve into the land of monos (the 33 is now being built by somebody else, anyone remember the Magic 25?) and there's a couple more. Power boats too... I'd actually love to pick up a new Hobie Power Skiff.

Sorry...

See? Here we go again. The Fox's failure was Performance's fault for not conforming. A little bit of thought into the Fox rig and a US version of F-20 could have materialized with two manufacturers. The H-20 could have retired just like the 6.0 and Hobie would have a more modern boat as its replacement, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. The Tybee could be featuring both. Instead, it's Performance's fault for adjusting the product to the market place. Bad, bad, Performance.

But - I want to say that I have the utmost respect for the Matt and the other Hobie dealers and techs that show up here. I hope they realize that what sounds like everybody on a hate fest aimed at them is really everybody frustrated and sad. We do love Hobie for what it has done for the sport. Those of us that have sailed and raced Hobies still have a soft spot in our hearts for the boats and the company. But the company and the community seem to be taking different paths.

Yes, everybody here realizes that Hobie is doing really well as a company. We all realize that Hobie is answering a market call with the roto-molded boats they are selling, and that has been a great business decision for them. We understand that, we really do. And we're happy that the company is thriving.

But it should be obvious now that the people in this community aren't as interested in those products for the most part. So when we hear statements that Hobie is a leader in the sport some just shake their heads. That's part of the frustration here as well. We're not currently interested in Kayaks. And they don't see Hobie as even desiring to focus on what this community is looking for anymore, which adds to the frustration. It may be just a matter of perception, but in so many matters, perception is reality.

Anyway, I hope continued success for Hobie, Matt, and the dealers. I also look forward to the day when they decide to bring out an A-Cat, an F-16, a new 20', or an update to the Tiger. Out of that list, only the 20 is outside the company's concentration on the 12-18 foot market.

Man, I love the spin boats, but Im with ya in that it is too much of a PITA to set up a spin boat for a one day local fleet race (guess Im lazy). Thats why I love the Wave, easy setup and sailing.

After looking at the success of the Nintendo Wii, Im thinking Hobie may be on to something with pushing the Wave and Getaway. We need new sailors and a boat they will sail, and the bulk of them are not going to come from spin class boats, thats for sure.

Heres my idea: every fleet in the US should also start a mirror Wave fleet. Build your Wave fleets with old and new sailors, and when your ready, COME TO THE WWF SUPER INTERCONTINENTAL WAVE CHAMPIONSHIPS, coming to Melbourne, Florida:

World Wave Federation Intercontinental Wave Championships
NOVEMBER 10th-11th, 2007
Hosted by Performance Sail and Sport
with video coverage by Adventure Online TV
at Pineda Park, Melbourne, Florida

Lots of room for boats and a brand new community building.

Lots of Wave sailing planned in between partying. Have a Wave, come! Dont have a Wave, come anyway, its going to be a big party!

WWF Past Videos:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid823619038?bclid=24526455&bctid=147010045

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid823619038?bclid=24526455&bctid=6165826

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid823619038?bclid=24526455&bctid=6141283

The regatta champion will be the first name added to the new WWF Championship trophy, being custom designed by world famous artist Neitze-boy.

The host WWF Club, The Space Coast Wave Crashers, has accepted a challenge by the South Florida Wave Crashers Union, led by Rick White. All other area Wave Crashers Associations are also welcome!

More details to come!

Yes,In the UK I can think of 2.

1, Hurricane 5.9, however they are also sailed with a Spi and currently run their open meetings with both boats.
2, Dart 18.

The Dart 18 is also sailed in mainland EU, Ithink there are a couple of Hurricane 5.9's around the rest of the EU too.

Matt please don't get me wrong I really do understand the decision. If I think about it from a strictly business perspective it makes complete sense. I just think it's a shame, Maybe shame on the US market, you have to sell boats or fold it up.

My only experience with the fox was at spring fever years ago. At that time the comptip seemed to be the complaint. I haven't seen one race since. I own a n-20, just makes sense for my weight and I do understand the sailplan difference. I think that might catch up with us as well if things move moreto the formula. I wouldn't mind a wave but not as my primary race boat.

I don't want to "shoot the messinger",sorry if it seemed that way. Unfortunately you have become the one with all the answers for some depressing news. Sorry.

I can think only of the Dart 18 catamaran, but I'm sure that that is not what you have in mind.

Other then that, no.

Everybody has gone to spinnakers, A-cat is no 2 person boat and the only non spi 2-up boat that isn't totally dead, besides the Dart 18's, are the Hobie 16's.

Wouter

Yeah, I don't really include the Dart 18 in the TheMightyHobie18/20 category :-) That's a pretty small 18. I almost see that as a H16 competitor. I bet you don't see too many crews at 330-350 lbs...

Given that the Hurricane/20 is a UK boat, would expect to see some still racing over there, but as noted earlier, they appear to be on a limited production basis, too. The "big" two man boat still seems to be a niche market within the already-small US market :-(

I never understood this particular problem and I think many people see problems were none are to be found.

Take for example the setup up time of a Hobie wave. How much faster is that then say uni-rigging a F16 or F18/Tiger ? Even with the latter two ONLY having the mainsail fitted, which will be faster and more enjoyable. The Wave or the uni-rigged F16/F18 ?

How much more work it is to sloop rig (no spi) either boat compared to the H20 or TheMightyHobie18 ?

I have my lazy days as well and often I sail my own boat with just the mainsail. I have even done that several times with 2 or 3 persons on board. The boat takes it in its stride, powers along nicely although at a somewhat slower speed (but not much slower).

Why can't these midwest guys just pick a modern boat, one with a trusted future, and just agree among themselfves how it will be raced at this or that event.

Then with respect to lakes. A normal race course is about 1 mile long and roughly 1/2 mile wide. All of the spi crews can work that big sail inside that box, several of us even singlehanded. So how small are your lakes, anyway ? I figure most aren't THAT small.

High winds then, what are we talking about here ? sustained 20 knots and higher regulary ? If not then these lake sailors are not getting more then us Aussies and Dutchies. With the latter getting confused seas thrown into the mix as well. If they are all pulling spis in that (even when singlehanding) then why not not these lake sailors ?

I strongly believe some of these lakes sailors we are referring to are just looking for reasons to not have to see the obvious.

If a lake is large enough, the winds low enough and the crews willing enough to handle Hobie 18's and Hobie 20's then why should there be any reason to not sail a Nacra-20, F18/Tiger or a F16 without the spi and spi gear ?

If that is still too much (I wouldn't know why) then just sail those boats without a jib.

Several of us are doing that regulary in the F16 class and therefor so can you guys. I'm sure it can be done with the F18/Tigers as well.

And if ever you get to the coast or a big lake with a weekend regatta then you can throw everything on get busy ! Can't do that with a Wave for example.

Remember you can always easily downgrade a fully fitted boat, but not easily upgrade a resort boat.

Just whatever you do pick a boat that has a future in Europe as all other are likely to vanish over the next couple of years.

Wouter

Hobie Cat Company-For profit business
Hobie Class Association- Volunteer owners group
NOT the same thing...

At no time(both when the company ran the class or when it switched to the private group) did either allow open boats.

Open boats in the Northeast USA started when some Hobie owners did not want to cut their mast and install a comptip.
This was happening in Rochester and Buffalo, the two largest regattas in Div 16 at the time.
Then as long as they were running a seperate start for non class legal boats they invited other cats to increase their numbers.
Well, it didn't work out, both events started to lose boats in time and not grow as anticipated.
In Syracuse we had some old salts who pleaded to not allow the open boats as it would fragment the class and we would see a loss of numbers instead of a gain.
There were a number of reasons why this may have been the case. One of the ones that I saw was there were to many starts at a regatta. If you were in 16C fleet you might have to wait an hour for your start and then have a 30min. race. This turned off a lot of people who stopped showing up. I truly can't think of anyone over the last 15 years that switched to a differant brand boat and continued to race in this area. So the idea that sailors are seeing better boats when the events opened up(non sactioned) doesn't have a lot of merit.
Having to many differant boats and fleet levels (Hobie company & HCA issue) along with adding two more open starts at the regatta's caused it to be no fun for the newbies.
The consolidation of boats may turn out to be a good thing.
Remember, there were open boats for 15 years. It didn't raise the numbers.
We(Fleet 204)stuck with the Hobie only format. We were the largets Cat race in the country last year and are consistantly in the top 5 year after year. It's hard to argue with results.

By the way I am for the F18's sailing at the HCA events and breaking out manufactures at the F18 Nationals to crown brand champions along with the overall.
I think the Hobie 16 and the F18's along with the A cat will have continued success and the others will come and go.

Wouter I agree it is more of a perception than reality. I look at the time to set up the 20 as double that of the 16. There are varying degrees of busting your boat down that we don't need to hash out here (please?). Adding a spin to rig time varies from 5 to 30 minutes (depending on who you ask).

At last years Mid-Americas I witnessed (for the first time) Tigers "flying" downwind and thought "Damn...why aren't we ALL doing that?!?"

If the ladies, daughters and sons can handle the front end of a 20, they can also handle a spin...again perception. A Tiger with a self-tacking jib only and no spi would be like a step back to riding along on the 16. HF18SN (tiger no spi) 63.65, still faster than a 20. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Pat I like your idea of allowing MM F18's starting with Tigers. That leaves a lot of choice for product to put on the race course.

Hobie continuing to support discontinued models is rubbish! They allready have low/no inventory on TheMightyHobie18 items such as jibs, traveler parts, etc. Its just a matter of time before the inventory will be totally exhausted on 14,17,18 and now 20 parts.
I don't see Hobie getting the customer following they experienced with glass cats from the roto and kayak owners. IMO its the continuation of Hobies internal struggle to determine who they are and how they fit into todays world. We as Americans are being feed a continual stream of disposable products that we consume in great numbers. Quality and longevity seem to no longer matter. If plastic is what the masses want then thats what they'll get.

I sailed the Fox a couple of times and I thought the writing was on the wall from the moment the boat landed here. If you don't even look at the comp tip debacle, the smaller sails doomed it. Why buy a Fox when the I20 is faster? That's how people perceived it.

I sailed the Fox a couple of times, it went nicely. Sadly, however I felt at that moment that a US-F20 was even more of a pipe dream. IMHO, it was Hobie's arrogance that got it killed. "Performance isn't meeting F20, but we will... they'll just be happy to be on a Hobie 20' boat with spi". Wrong. People just wanna go fast, lol

It has been discussed... b/c I talked a/b it with some friends... putting an I20 rig on the H20... ;-)

Sadly, as most everyone else has said, money talks. Unfortunately, tradition and good will won't get very far in feeding people and paying the mortgage.

if by selling Getaways Hobie is getting back to the masses than they are doing the very right thing. cat sailing is not only about racing...as a matter of fact mybe 15% are racing...the rest are out there to have fun and enjoy themselfs in a reasonable price