I should mention that they are C-Cat photos.

The cost for THAT wing is probably in that range, but if you are asking about prices for "volume production" then it will be lower.

The cost of an A-class mast is around 4000-4500 dollar and that is a rather simple structure compared to a rigid wing. A price guess would be between 10 - 20 000 dollars for a rigid wing in volume prodution.

Some concerns with a rigid wing is how to handle the boat on land (you need to take down the mast after each sail) and if it survives a pitchpole.

/hakan

We discussed this very thing a few days ago.
There is a new inlfating tech that will stand water up in walls it is so strong....and why not suck the air out the same way you inflate it?? Have a carbon shaped section at the top of the mast and the bottom and inflate the rest of the wing.
Or maybe five carbon sections like battons for extra truth to shape?

the inflateable sail is also known as a double surfaced sail. it's the standard in hanggliding. i had a friend that studied the Macharje(spelling?) book on aerodynamics and developed a double surface sail for windsurfing. he produced quite a few, but no bigshots ever adopted them and won a big race. i used them for a while, but never got dialed in enough to prove they were better than a regular camber induced sail. it would be hard to make one that could be hoisted like a regular sail, but there is potential in the idea.

The point is that it is not new that they are trying to use inflated rig on an A class. I think it was around 1988 that a Swiss guy was experimenting with it and he did go fast with it ( i will try to find the photo of that boat ) but the rigging and de-rigging was a problem and also the weight (at that moment the carbon was not yet common) . On what was written down the up wind performance was very good but very difficult ( critical in adjusting ), the down wind was even more difficult.
But it looks very nice, i cannot wait to see Ben sailing with it on the Worlds in Florida.

That's what I had in mind. Are there any pictures of it in use?

Remember, it wasn't long ago that people were saying a square top sail wasn't do-able, or a spinnaker would be "too much" power for a cat.

There may come a day when we all have a solid wing sail, carried in a covered trailer similar to a glider trailer, and you lay the boat on it's side, attach it with 3 or 4 shrouds to support it, tip the boat upright and off you go, might end up being faster to rig than today's A cats! After a day's racing, you take it down, slide it back in the trailer, go find the keg.

Dennis Connor proved the wing sail is faster than the conventional sail back in the 1988 America's Cup on his 60' cat. He had both, tested them, went with the wing. I wish we had more of his testing data available to see exactly how much faster it was, vs. cost, etc.

So, all we really need here is a little Research and Development on this concept and the foiling concept, which is being done by the C class today, as we sit here sailing our 1000 year old conventional soft sail rigs.

Once the details are worked out, we will all be sailing faster, easier, talking about the "Old Days", when people sailed in the water (not over it) with those heavy old masts and inefficient soft sails...

*cough, cough* <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Better fill that wing with lots of helium, or better, N2O gas <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

How will you tow that large trailer behind your bike? I dont think there will be cars when we get to that point in the future <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We'll all be driving electric cars by then. And I do like the helium idea, fill the hulls with it too while you're at it! You might have to tie your wing to the trailer to keep it from floating away though!

Here's my prediction:

I bet that there will be 99 A cat sailors refusing to race against Ben and his new wing in November in Florida. The class will hold an emergency meeting and outlaw solid wing sails by the end of the first day. Deja vu on the foiler rule anyone?

Personally I applaud him for trying, and I would vote against any new rules to the Acat class rule set.

The coolest things happening in sailing are foiling Moths, CClass wings and Ben's project. Too bad he wont get to race it.

Bill

Emergency meeting? The class dont have procedures to follow when they want to change rules?




Amen!

But...if he's going to go through all the time and money to develop it, knowing the A class will most likely outlaw it, why not also put it on foils?? Or at least have a set of Moth foils standing by to try out, or has that been done already? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

He could start a new class, call it: Mini C. Only 10% evil... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Still, the cost alone will keep it from cathing on very fast, if at all.

Already have the rules in place to limit the effects of hydrofoils. Not the best of rules, but extremely discouraging if you want to go down that path.

In regard to the wing. The C-Class cats have 2 on board and the crew is fairly busy tuning the wing. Different dynamics in that you control twist and yaw. Doing that on a 1-man boat whilst steering and holding the main is going to be the biggest factor for Ben Hall to overcounter. In straight line he may be the quickest when he gets it going, but changing gears and getting round the course going to be another matter and will take a bit of training. Only 6 weeks really to go now. I think this will be his biggest challenge to get over, not some overzealous bunch changing the rules.

I took a look at Marstrom's A Cat whilst sailing the Nationals in Long Beach a few years ago. He had this really cool system that adjusted much of his rigging based on the tension of the mainsheet. For example while he was sailing in a breeze the harder he sheeted his main the tighter the downhaul, further back the rotator and maybe even the outhaul. When he was tacking and let off the main all would ease for power on the next tack then sheet in for speed. These where all adjustable for the different wind conditions with cleats on the hulls. Maybe Ben could figure that all out and just use the mainsheet while he is tacking for all those tweeks. I hope they let him sail with the wing if just for curiosity's sake.

Later,
Dan

I just got off the phone with someone close to Ben.

First off, $50,000 is a made up number.

Ben's wing contains $2000 worth of carbon and nomex. The skin is mylar shrink wrap (pennies per yard). Designed by Dave Hubbard, same designer as Cogito. Its a 2 element wing rig with twist control. It comes apart into 4 pieces and that simplifies transportation. About an hour on the Hall CNC, (substitute jigsaw for home builder) If you've got the skills (autocad), the desire (and $2k) and the time you can build a wing.

A brand new Glazer Acat sail is $1900 with Battens - Pentax RBS Carbon battan, plus shipping. That price is from a Hopatcong sailor that just got one. So its not out of the realm of being realistic for the class cost wise.

I misspoke in my earlier post about rule changes.

A rule change is a two stage process, first its proposed at the AGM, which happens at the worlds in Nov, and then its voted on by every member of the class, which wont happen in Nov. So bottom line is that if Ben wants to race his wing he can.

The question is how many of the other 99 sailors will race him.

Bill

Oh, yeah I forgot to add that a new Hall mast is about $2400 (thats a two year old price.) So really you are talking $1900 + $2400 = $4300. Figure $4500 to be safe, plus rigging and a boom and you might be closer to $5000 for a modern Acat rig.

I'm surprise noboby noticed the new plaform that wing is sitting on.

If anybody needs me, I'll be in the basement working on my new wing.

Bill

No pre-pregs in the wing? How about the structure inside the wing, the tubes have to cost a bit?

Even if the wing can be separated into four elements, it is quite an undertaking rigging this beast. We keep our boats at the club, and having to lug the wing into and out of storage every time seems harder than just bringing the sails.

But hey, if I can use a spi on it when going downwind, why not <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (No, I am not talking A-cat when I mention the spi)


When will your first open-source wing design be released Bill?

Rather than build it from scratch, might he (Ben Hall, Hall Spars) offer a kit, where he builds the ribs, spars, etc. and the buyer puts it all together? At a price somewhere between his actaul cost and a fully built wing, that still might be cheaper than the $5,000 mast and sail combo?

How about if he races it, but throws out his scores? Then the others won't fear it but welcome the chance to see just how well it performs up against the best traditional rigs, and see if it might improve cat sailing? In the end, he might get the rule changed and sell a whole lot of kits, and have the entire fleet ready to race with wings next year. OR, perhaps the class could offer two sub-classes, traditional rig or wing rig. Oh, and another sub-class with foils! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Most A-class sails buy boats, the don't build them! You can't compare the price of a things that you buy with a pile of carbon fibre that in theory could be assembled to a nice rigid wing sail.

In the beginning of the "evolution" the designs would change quick and your wing would get outdated fast and require each sailor to spend loads of money upgrading. How many A-class sailors do you think would show up at the worlds 2013?

If you can get a quotation from Hall spars for a wing mast, complete ready to sail, below 10 000 dollars them I'm really surprised. The wing mast should of course be painted, durable, low weight and survive a "mild" pitchpole.


/hakan

I think the recent little americas cup demonstrated that a foiler isn't always the answer. On the other side, conditions was not ideal for foiling and there is a relatively large weight difference between a C and an A cat.

What is this, guys ?

For years we have been fed the story that the A-cat class is a true development class, but now that actually two REAL developments come along, foils and the wing sail, we hear all kinds of screams to ban both before either can proof their worth !

Remember the A-cat mantra ?

Length, width and sailarea limited while anything else goes.

It all started when the minimum weight was fixed at 75 kg, from then onwards more and more rules and regulations were added. Banning full foiling, banning banana boards, even banning canted daggerboard beyond 6 degrees. T-foil rudders are hampered by the "new" rules as well. Now there seems to be support to ban a solid rig.

If the A-cat sailors had such an attitude in the 80's and early 90's then we would never have seen carbon masts on the A's. Surely those things costed a fortune back then as well !

The implicit value of the A's always was their willingness to try completely new stuff and make it work. Since 10 years they are losing their religion. I'm not sure that that is a good thing.

With respect to the Hall wing sail, I believe one can make such a thing work for 10.000 dollars. Most of the money is in the first experimental prototypes anyway and those investments have already been made in the C-class. Patient Lady and Cogito projects developped and proved a wing that is both dependable and practical. Standing on that experience it shouldn't be too much of an effort to make a commericially build version.

Wouter