Im sorry, but I agree with Holger and Mark here. One of the worst promotional things to do as a class is to give the appearence that you have something to hide. Having a private forum for the "honest" stuff is one of the best ways to feed such perceptions.

It also goes directly against the "be inclusive" principle that was at the basis of the F16 class from its creation. On what other grounds would we have put up with members like you and Stewart, Mark ? Or even myself ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But seriously, I fear some are underestimating how different the F16 class is from your run of the mill sailing classes. I know some feel that this forum is a promotional liability, but then I know that without it we would never had a F16 class to begin with.

Yes, I agree with these same people that "openness and inclusiveness" can become liabilities when out of control but I also believe that "tight control" can be a serious liability in its own right. If F16 sailors wanted tight control then they would be sailing in Hobie classes. And they would be right in doing so as Hobie does that best, although the number of Hobie classes is very quickly decreasing for some reason. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

I'm also sorry Wouter, but like the tail wagging the dog this public forum can never dictate to the F16 Governing Council. Yes it is a very good tool for the F16 Class when used correctly but don't kid yourself too much I wouldn't have thought that many people have bought an F16 on the back of it. If you think having a Forum specifically for people with a proper connection to the F16 Class is a 'tight control' I would beg to differ. This suggested Forum, being recogniesd by the various association members and GC would to my mind do the exact opposite. So if you're concerned that some hobie 14 sailor from a place which I never knew existed felt left out then so be it. They should buy a proper Cat <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

AGM or no AGM, if the policy isn't publicized in writing with a follow-up web based discussion (private or open) then it is not a generally agreed F16 policy. The F16 class was not founded that way. I also believe that discussions can not be ended by refering to the AGM. Most class members can not be present there in person and as such an AGM merely acts as a tool to not have a broad discussion inside the class. As the topics (agenda) were not not publized before the AGM there was no way to prepare oneself for them or send in contributions.

The AGM is one of those archaic institutions that the F16 class during the start-up phase kept out of the class. There is a reason why no AGM or alike setup is mentioned in the F16 class rules and why this forum and the webpage are (were?). I find an AGM were everybody needs to be physically present an outdated concept in this internet age and I think one may succesfully hold the argument that it may be democratically quesionable. Otherwise one can easily maintain the argument that the holding of an AGM is not in line with the F16 class rules,

I refer to rule 2.2.1 :

[color:"green"]
The Formula 16 Class Authority will be formed by the Formula 16 General Council and appointed local representatives and related officials. Any official communication will be handled via the official Formula 16 webpage and e-mail address which at this time are ... ...
[/color]


Therefor the AGM can not be considered "any official communication" because it has no generally accessible webpage based linkage like video conferencing. The F16 forum is of course part of the F16 web presence (c.q. webpage) and is at this time the only place to hold official discussions as defined by the F16 class rules.

Additionally, discussions are much improved if people have the time to research the situation and formulate a reply calmly, not to mention cool off. None of this is garanteed at a physical AGM. More then onces it will degrade into an emotional scream fest, were soft spoken contributors will not be heard at all. A web based textual environment is much superior.

I'm aware of the arguments in favour of having an AGM but sadly these are among the points on which I disagree with the current GC. I thought that I was the only one but found out differently.

I'm also saddened to report that I found a few F16 officials to be lacking in their understanding of the F16 class rules. (Two examples are given in this post). But this is no small wonder as the people involved in crafting and refining the class rules over the first 5 years were not involved in any way. Only very recently did Phill Brander become part of the GC and only as its secretary, not as an advisor/consultant on the class rules. As the creator of the F16 class rules I have had the pleasure to argue the intepretation of the F16 class rules with an official who neither sails or owns an F16, is not seriously interested in F16's and who is far more heavily involved in a rival catamaran class. I have nothing but respect for this person, but I do question whether he is the right person for the job.



With respect to the latter part of your statement.

If the website is not updated and this forum is no longer the place for discussions then were do F16 class members find the official F16 communique's and hold their discussions ?

Are we abandoning two operational institutions without providing alternatives ? What is the point in that ? Assuming for the moment that it is indeed considered wise to abandon these two F16 pilars at all.

How does this new (no ?) "communication policy", satisfy the F16 class rules ?


I specifically refer to rule 2.7.1 :

[color:"green"]
Any Formula 16 class member may propose amendments, additions or changes to the rule. They will be supported in their efforts by the Formula 16 authority with respect to communication and be given the means to propose the amendments, changes or additions to the class as a whole.
[/color]

I'm failing to see this required active support by the GC.


Now with respect to "openness" of the F16 class, the 3rd pilar the F16 class was founded on. I'm sure the GC is working hard on getting the minutes of the Zandvoort AGM finished and publized. Praise there. I hope to see the minutes on the other meetings held on the future of the class as well.


With respect to Mark's comments :




I actually beg to differ here. It is rather that the F16 sailors are the F16 class and the GC is empowered to execute the wishes of the class. It is not so that the GC is the dog that commands its slavish tail to wag when it wants to and how it wants to. We are not here for the greater glory of the GC. The GC is here for the greater glory of the F16 class and that means us, the sailors !


Wouter

It does - I've received some stuff from John in the last few days, and I'll get it up in the next few.

Paul

You really don't get it do you Wouter!!! I was trying to refrain from mentioning your not so subtle absence from the AGM, but had you the inclination to ask for an agenda in advance then I'm positive that you would have been furnished with one well prior of the Meeting. The meeting itself IMO was very proactive and even you must surely admit holding an AGM prior to the 2007 Global Challenge would have been a bit impractical if not impossible whilst you were Chairperson. As for the rest of your comments I personally don't really think having an AGM or perhaps a specific Forum for Class members will make any negative differences what so ever to the Class, now or in the future.

Before we start any distracting rumours, let me inform everybody on what went down with respect to my person and the AGM.

On the day the AGM was going to be held I contacted the Chairman and ran through the expected procedings. This talk was short and I was assured that nothing major would come to pass. He agreed that I wouldn't miss anything by not attending. The next day I approached Martien and had a long talk covering the topics and what everybody said.

The reason I didn't attend the AGM personally has to do with the fact that we are not all born with perfect bodies. There are times when I need to involuntarily excuse myself. I have done this more often during the week. After the dinner at the Indian restaurant, on the day with the trip to Amsterdam, etc.

But I admit that this is the most easily found stick to hit me with.

Wouter

Nice move Wouter re-editing your post after my reply!! Openness and Integrity in it's truest form?

Actually I had only read your posting after I had finished my earlier posting.

Do you have anymore scandalous angles you may want to try to take attention away from the real issues ?

Wouter

My only angle is that you changed your 10:17 post quite dramatically after my response at 10:52. This re-edit was posted at 11:29. The only scandal is that my response is now based on information which you subsequently changed.

I'm enjoying this banter between you two BUT If you pair want to see who has the biggest manhood YOU should really be doing it privatly than on a public forum where everybody can and will read it
SO both agree to disagree and move ON
Because it's stuff like this ,that people move people away from the class not towards it
Regards Richard

Touche

Richard,



The sad thing is........you couldn't be more right.

Regards,
Phill

Agree with you Phill. Pushed me out and effected my decision when buying a boat a year ago.

FFS Wouter,

If you have something to say to me then take it off this forum. I really can't be arsed to trade semantics with you in public.

James,
While I understand your position, it was a shame to lose you
When in Australia you put a lot of effort into demonstrating the F16 concept to others.
I hope you are enjoying the A class and the best of luck in the US.

Regards,
Phill

No I did not Mark !

I finished my posting at the time specified by the update. I save my longer postings several times during creation as there is a time-out limit after which you loose everything you write. During the time I took to complete what I wanted to say you entered your reply, which I only saw AFTER I had finished my own posting.

I did not (and would not) alter my posts depending on what any reply to them may or may not have said.

Neither did I change major points in my posting after the first draft.I did reposition the order of things and improved the text for easier reading but I did not change the points themselves. I may have added a point or two but that is mute as you can not have replied to something that wasn't there at the time you read it.

Sorry Mark, you are grasping at straws and you are still trying to find a scandal to take attention away from the points raised.

Wouter

I don't, and that is why I didn't contact you privately.

I have things to say to the class as a whole and that includes the GC.

I'm also drawing attention to some points of conflict. Look up the word "semantics" if you are confused about the difference in meaning.

I have to ask this though. Is your reply :"I really can't be arsed to trade semantics with you in public." the official reply by the secretary of the GC ?

If not then can we get a reasoned response to the points raised please. In public that is, as I'm hard pressed to see any use of you being "arsed" to communicate with me in private ?

It is not me who has a problem, but the class. I'm fronting for a group of people who have become dissatisfied.

Wouter

Thanks Phill. Need all the luck I can get, and need some wind to go sailing! In between monsoons at the moment for the past month and next couple, so the only wind are those from the local storm cells generally.

Still have an interest in F16 as Singapore has the biggest fleet of F16s. At last count we had 17 Taipans, 2 Blades (Vectorworks and one built by Scott), and now 2 Vipers with more on the way.

How about look up the word "Belligerent".

Wouter,

In that case; in order to avoid confusion and misleading comments, you should prepare you posts in a text editor first. Then, once you are happy with your comments, copy them and paste them into a reply. Once you post it, it's out in public.

You may or may not be aware that if people subscribe to a thread, then they get emailed what you post originally, not what is edited.