This is not for fun.

This is for the Olympics. The Olympics is "cut throat competition". These competitors are not sailing for fun.

These are both professional sailors. Johny Lovell is a sailmaker and Robbie Daniel has an ad on the homepage of this site. They are in this race to further their sailing careers. It is to their great advantage to win this regatta and compete in the Olympic Games.

A protest was made,the plantiff and defendants presented their cases to the jury and the decision of no foul was rendered. Case closed.

I would hope that since these are the 2 best American Tornado sailors that they will put aside this incident and be able to share their experiences so that the sum of their knowledge will increase the probabilities of winning an Olympic Gold Medal.

I don't like "cut-throat" competition. That is why I rarely watch pro sports or the Olympics.

Yea, my dislike of cut-throat competition is what keeps me out of the Olympics too. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Exactly - this is the bottomline. Sailing for reasons other than fun make people fight for real, protest for real, cheat for real and do many other things that most of us would rather live without.

Out of curiosity: in 38 years sailing, the boats I sailed were protested ONCE.

That protest is a digression, but worth your time, I guess.

It was the first time ever we won in elapsed time and corrected time. But the last boat crossing the line protested all others, claiming that we rounded the wrong buoy. What used to be the "north" buoy now was the "south" buoy and there was a new "north" buoy further north.

Upon checking the "advice to sailors" (navy's official publication to mariners), all skippers agreed that he was right: only his boat sailed the 2 mile longer course to the new buoy. The others just followed us... But there was no "judgement": After the facts were known, the "teacher" withdrew his protest.

- Why? - I asked him.

He told me that his only goal was to teach everybody the buoy's new location and that all sailors MUST read both the sailing instructions AND "advices to sailors". This was more important than "winning" trophys and medals through a protest.

Quite different from the Olympics, isn't it?

Much different. That's the kind of sailing I'm interested in.

I think the Olympics needs to work on their "dog eat dog" mentality.

Johnny Lovell is a CPA that runs a business. He also has a two year old son so like many of you, when he goes sailing he is taking time off from his job (not making money) and his family (You could argue that Robbie Daniels is more of a "professional" than Johnny). I think this makes his accomplishments quite impressive since many of his competitors are spending a lot more time training while he is working. Charlie Ogeltree is a professional in the industry being employed by Ullman Sails.

I think if you have not sailed an international or Olympic class WC or Olympic trials, it is hard to appreciate how the level of competition is ramped up another notch (or a couple of notches). It is not for everyone but some can enjoy the challenge and the preparation that is required to do well. It IS fun to them. It is not an accurate or fair statement to label that level of competition "cut-throat". Often I see people critical of this because they are not willing to make the commitment to that level.

While I am sure Robbie and Hunter are extremely disappointed that they did not win the trials, perhaps they can take some satisfaction in knowing that if Johnny and Charlie medal again, it will in some part be due to the challenge they had to overcome at the Trials.

Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 230

The Olympics are about sports and sports achievement.

Olympians don't cure diseases, prevent world hunger, or prevent wars. Some, however, cheat. That is not laudable.

When anyone, whether in business, politics or sports, adopts a win at all cost mentality, they should be prepared to accept criticism.

[Often I see people critical of this because they are not willing to make the commitment to that level.] The statement is a non sequiter.

I would ask you how many WC, Olympic Trials, or Olympic regattas have you sailed? If you have, have you experienced any level of cheating from your own personal experience?

I've sailed WC's in dinghy, multihull, and sailboard classes. I've sailed the Olympic Trials in the Div II sailboard and the Tornado. In every regatta I found the competition intense and exhilirating. I never found other competitors to be "cut-throat". Those that broke rules on the race course were dealt with by other competitors and the established racing rules. The winners in each competition won fairly and with honor.

A team at the Tornado Olympic trials observed an action by another team that they felt violated the racing rules. They followed the established procedure in addressing this perceived violation. It was disallowed by a jury following established procedure that established the facts and exonerated the other team. I would hope that participants in this forum will cease and desist from judgement or putting labels on either of the teams involved especially if you were not there.

You need to figure out why you're angry before you give yourself a stroke.

Try this: 1. Pull this post up in threaded mode 2. examine each of my posts.

In the ancient Olympics, I believe the boxers wrapped their hands in leather thongs studded with metal. I'm just guessing here, but someone probably got hurt. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> That would fit my definition of "dog eat dog, cut throat, win at all cost" competition. I also understand the games were conducted in the nude and with religous fervor. But, I wasn't there so I don't know for sure.

The point is, for any organization or activity to continue its existence it must adapt to change. The Olympic image has been sullied by cheaters. The IOC is very aware of the problem.

I have to agree with Bob.

At the many, many Hobie NAs, Alter Cup events, etc. that I've raced and officiated, the one common thing that I take home is that there's very little screaming, people do circles (or sail well enough to avoid the issue), and generally are nice to one another on the water. Yes, I've seen exceptions (that were taken care of in the room); but overall, sailors at this level are not intentionally cheating.

At the Olympic event that I worked last week, I saw plenty of examples of great sailors sailing well, doing turns as needed, etc. There were a number of protests, but that's why they bring in the big guns to run the jury.

Mike

Not angry at all Pete, just a little frustrated with the term cheater being tossed around this thread (IMO) a little too freely and the upper ecehelon of our sport being called cut throat. Comparisons with other sports are not apples to apples because an Olympic track star is usually a highly paid professional and there are higher stakes that lead to "cheating". I do not believe you can apply that scenario to sailing. I feel priviledged when I get to play with the stars of our sport and so far have found all of them to be exceptional individuals who play the game within the rules, are approachable, and give a lot back.

Bob,

You are correct on this issue. It is not cheating to file a protest. I do not know why this is being percieved in this manner. though I do not like being in a protest room, I do understand the need for it to exist.

The cries of "cheaters" apparently came from some participants or attendees at the regatta. Go to the blog and reread one person's report on the "cheater" comments.

Olympic trial blog

Yes and that IMO is the problem. Some on this forum who were not there are basing their public opinion on only one person's version and/or perspective of a specific incident.

Ok Bob. I can't take anymore fuzzy thinking.

Take any event in the world. If you protest someone for TEAM RACING.... which impacts on your finish position. Do you agree with me that you are saying that X AND Y are cheating?

Not a mistake!
Not an error in judgemnt...
The act of team racing is a pre meditated act of two people who are cheating and undermining the integrity of the sport!

Do you think that the standard of proof that you should have when you fly that protest flag should be of the highest order, bullet proof evidence in fact? OR are you satisfied... with hey... I think X and Y are cheating... let's see what they have to say about the incident.

Unfortuneatly. The following posted comments speak to how this allegation is interpreted in the world.

Remember... the PROTEST WAS DENIED... BUT this is what you get.

From sailing anarchy



So, even when the protest committe says you are found NOT GUILTY OF CHEATING.... It STICKS .... you are now slimed!

Mark

OH... and notice the second idiot joined SA today... just so he could opine on the integrity of those who were not found guilty of cheating.

As I see it from a total outsider looking in... and can only judge by what I have read.

IF there was team racing involved, which is against the rules, guilt should be or innocence be apportioned by the Protest Committee.... that is their job. In this case the PC declined the protest, thus Daniels is innocen, whether it be through the fact that he is or that there was some fault with Lovells protest HE IS INNOCENT. Lets be honest, and I am not saying this is the case here, but training partners have 'helped' each other out for years, either by sitting on someone, holding a loose cover, the odd capsize and letting our mates through!.... yes we can all say we have seen it, hell we used to do it all the time when Team racing and it does get very hard not to help your team mates out when you are supposed to be sailing individually. I remember one student championships where one of our team was 3 points behind the leader, the leader found three of our team near him at the start and our man found a couple of the leaders mates near him.

Was Lovell right to protest? If he felt that rules had been infringed IMHO YES.

As the protest was declined should taht be the end of the matter? AS the protest committee have had their say.... YES

Mark,

Mistakes in judgement and boathandling create scenarios where one competitior has the option to protest another competitor on the race course. Just like a lawyer can "object" to another lawyer's actions or tactics in a court of law and asks the judge for a verdict, so do we have the option to use the protest process in sailing when we believe the rules have been violated. You don't hear lawyers calling the other lawyer a cheat when they object in court. They state their case and look to the judge for resolution. In football, there is "illegal" contact all the time on the playing field and that is what referees are there for. At the end of the game, are the players penalized for illegal contact called cheaters by the other team? Typically not.

With pure speculation on my part, the Chu's may have made a conscious decision to lose a place to help their friend and training partner without his knowing it. If that was the case it was wrong and Johnny Lovell was within his rights to protest or "object" to what he witnessed. On the other hand, they may have completely misjudged the position of the finish line, jibed, realized their mistake, did another jibe that resulted in a fouled spinnaker, and the end result is they lost a place which just happened to be Robbie. This may have been the facts found in the protest hearing. None of us were there or in the heads of the competitors and to put labels on any of it is wrong and that includes the tone of the comments on the Red Gear Racing website.

If you try to cross my bow on port and I have to alter course to avoid a collision, I can:

1. Let it go in the spirit of sportmanship (especially if it does not really affect my position in the race).
2. Tell you to do your penalty turns.
3. Protest your action if you choose not to do the penalty turns.

In this case, you might feel you crossed me with plenty of room. If I pursue the protest, we have to let a third party (the protest committee) decide based upon the facts found. Whatever the outcome, it would be wrong for me to call you a cheater for trying to cross my bow and for you to call me a cheater for protesting you. The same standard and civility should apply to this incident.

Bob Hodges

Bob

You put it nso much better than I did

Now this is a purely theoretical post, completely unrelated with whatever happened or did not happen in the US Olympic trials. I wasn't there and do not (can not) have an opinion about it.

Bob's argumet stands true in an ideal, 100% legal, world. But lawyers (and athletes) use several direct legal resources for indirect or secondary purposes.

One example is objecting in court to interrupt the oponent's speech when he is being particularly brilliant, to disrupt his (or the jury's) line of thought, to delay the trials and buy time or to manipulate the judges/jury, and other secondary purposes. The action itself is legal, but the goal is not the one that makes it legal.

In serious chess games the oponents regularly use "psychological war" in the form of protests, requests, delays, etc. to mess with the oponent's concentration.

Obviously sailing is not a mind-only game like chess, but even in sailing, protests might be used for indirect purposes.

Again, I am not saying that this was or wasn't the case, nor that it is fair (or unfair), I just say that it can be done.

Luiz's point is well taken but my observation is at the highest levels of competitive multihull, dinghy, and boardsailing the level of sportmanship is exceptionally high. I find racing A-Class catamarans refreshing as there is (currently) a level of peer pressure to settle disputes on the water and keep it out of the protest room.