I've been sailing a P18 for quite some time and have yet to ever come close to pitch poling. Even with the leeward bow underwater, she just kept on moving.

I own a Hobie 18 with an all-aluminum mast that I bought on Ebay for $750. It is bulletproof, sets up in 25 minutes from the trailer, there are all sorts of parts available for it, can be sailed solo or with three or four adults on it. It ain't real fast, but it seems like a tough combination of features to beat.
I have been racing as crew on a Prindle 18.2. That thing flies! However, it is really dellicate, it takes forever to set up and put away, and has a tendency to accelerate to really high speeds in little puffs. Most of the other "new tech" boats will have simmilar qualities. I can easily sail my TheMightyHobie18 up to a ramp full of PWC's and bass boats and not worry about killing anyone or cleaving anything in half! I can also dump it of the trailer onto a beach and not stress out about little pieces of gravel destroying the hulls. It is the Vovo Turbo station wagon of the catamaran world! The Hobie 18 is also non-threatening to the uninitiated cat sailor, so the kids and thier parents are happy too!

Hi Steve,



Thanks for your suggestion. A few questions - the G-Cat is no longer made, right? How hard is it to get parts? I don't see many of these advertised - do you?



Jonathan

Well, simple matters a lot. Easily maintainable matters a lot. Cheap matters within reason. For all these criteria, the Prindle 16 we have is pretty good. It may be slow with the two of us on it, but maybe that doesn't matter so much. It's hard to put our whole family on, or to put friends on, and that's more of an issue. So I am not completely certain whether we need to make a change at all, but I do want to explore the question. I think we'd be going a lot faster with a bigger boat, and since I would want a used boat, I would like to know what to keep my eyes open for, but there's no crying need to get it right away.



So I would basically like to sail a few different kinds of cats, keep my eyes open, and have some idea what I should be trying, with the option of buying something if it comes at a good price and looks like a decent step up.



If, for a little extra money, we can get something we can stick a few extra people on (we have three daughters), and that moves faster, that would be worth doing. But I don't want it to be a lot more fragile, and handling shallow water really matters a lot. I hear of people tearing up centerboards on sand bars, and I don't want that. If the boards kick up easily, that's fine.



We almost always trailer the boat, and I want to get in and out of the water quickly. Within reason, we can deal with a little more weight on either the boat or the mast, but if the boat is easy to handle on land, that offsets a little speed on the water.



High performance is a lot less important than stability and safety for us.



Thanks for the questions - it helps me be more specific!



Jonathan

Thanks - I'm pretty sure what I want is a "fun boat" as defined in the 1970s ;=>



Jonathan

I had a longish discussion about the various Prindle boats with a man from Performance Cat, and after listening and asking lots of questions, he made a bunch of suggestions that are starting to feel good to me. I'd like to hear feedback and pushback on this, though.



He suggested that I should really get comfortable sailing the boat I have in various conditions, and also get out there and sail lots of different kinds of boats before I buy another. He said I would definitely be better off with a bigger boat in the long run, but I might not know which one without more experience, and it would make more sense to learn to sail well on a Prindle 16 before moving up.



A few notes on specific boats. He said that the Prindle Escape is just a Prindle 18 with a Prindle 16 mast, primarily for rental, where you don't want too much power. He agreed with most of what Wouter said about the Prindle lines, but drew slightly different conclusions. He said that the 18-2 and 19 were just better made boats, and felt they were not really more fragile in the water, except for the daggerboards, which kick up but still might break under certain conditions. On the beach, he said you have to be more careful with them. In the water, he said they were not necessarily more complex, because you just don't use what you don't need. But I think it still might affect setup time quite a bit, right?



He also suggested that I should be less scared of racing - he said most racing is informal and social, that camping and barbecues are involved, and only the top 5 boats need to worry about who wins, so everyone else relaxes and tries to learn from each other.



To me, this sounds like good advice. What do you all think?



Jonathan

One idea no one else has forwarded that deserves consideration is to buy more small boats instead of one larger boat! A good first addition would be a Hobie Wave as it is ideal for teaching beginners and getting them comfortable sailing by themselves. You can get a good deal on a used one if you look around. Speaking from experience, it is much fun to have your own fleet of three Waves and go sailing all together on separate boats! You do not have to be on the same boat to have fun together - in fact you can have your own races if you have more boats. Instead of taking twenty minutes to rig, take five and go saiing for longer. Wave snobs do not know this but you still get the sensation of fast sailing - and I have sailed nearly everything. So at least consider this strategy. Someone will end up liking the Wave the best and someone else will like the Prindle the best but they will not be disappointed since you will have both! You can always crew for someone on a larger boat - there is much to be said for sailing OPBs, too! (Other People's Boats)

Mike Fahle Toledo

I see I made quite a few typo's in my post soory about that.



Ofcourse I meant that Branch 1 is better for recreational sailing.



Ahh well a boat is a boat and The difference between a P18 and P 18-2 is not that big. Although the second will always be more tender than the first (relatively speaking). Set up time, ah well, if you don't rig what you don't use than no boat takes alot of setup time.



Although if you don't have a big need for this go-fast-stuff and that go fast stuff than why have centreboards ?



Sure you can leave them off but that won't sail well right. And there is one other thing I like about the boardless P16 I still own over daggerboard cats. Boardless cats definately easier to get throught the surf. 5 inches of water under you hulls and you're off; with full control of steering. With raised daggerboards you have alot of sideways drift and such.



So I think the guy from PC isn't wrong, only that if you would ask me I would advice the P18 over say the P18-2 for the things you specified as important.



But if you want a more sexy boat with more cool stuff than the P18-2 and such is the boat for you.



One thing about more advanced boats, they are become more powerfull with size. Not something to really worry about but true just teh same.



About racing; Yes do it. Especially distance race can be enjoyable.



Wouter

the advice was

He suggested that I should really get comfortable sailing the boat I have in various conditions, and also get out there and sail lots of different kinds of boats before I buy another. He said I would definitely be better off with a bigger boat in the long run, but I might not know which one without more experience, and it would make more sense to learn to sail well on a Prindle 16 before moving up.



Absolutely.. You should be able to sail your P16 with crew in 20+ and have fun... It should not be a near death experience!





you recieved the following advice

conclusions. He said that the 18-2 and 19 were just better made boats, and felt they were not really more fragile in the water, except for the daggerboards, which kick up but still might break under certain conditions.



True... these are good tough boats... However... they don't deal with rocks well... they were not designed to sail way up the beach... You don't want to let them wallow in the surf line while you are eating lunch.



On the beach, he said you have to be more careful with them. In the water, he said they were not necessarily more complex, because you just don't use what you don't need.

But I think it still might affect setup time quite a bit, right?



Everything is bigger and heavier and more powerful. The boat still only has two sails... How its rigged goes a long way to determining setup time. You can make the boat very simple to rig if you would like. Lots of factors to consider.



A race is a collection of sailors who agree to go the same way at the same time.... Its a great way to see the other boats you might consider owning in the future... meet other people ... ask questions... almost everyone will be willing share helpful hints about cat sailing..



Sounds like very good advice

Take Care

Mark

A small fleet might be really fun - but each boat costs money and needs to be stored somewhere and towed. I don't think that works so well for us, especially the towing part.



If I could leave them in the water somewhere, I'd sure consider it!



Jonathan

Actually, there are some P-18s being advertised for not that much more than we paid for the P-16, so if we could sell the P-16 and replace it with the P-18 to get a boat with similar characteristics and setup time, that might be very nice indeed. But the closest one is 5 hours away ;->



And Hobie 18s are often available for similar great prices.



The P-18 is lighter than the H-18, and doesn't have comp tips, but the H-18SX has these fun looking wing seats, and a furling jib sounds useful. How do these two boats compare for setup? I assume parts are pretty available for either boat.



Hmmmm good thing I'm not really in a hurry to make a decision ;->



Jonathan

I sailed Pamlico sound for ten years back in the 1970s. The hobie 16 was the boat of choice but it was the only boat to own in those days. Given a relatively "fixed crew weight" of 360 lbs I think the best choice that would also represent a value would be a Prindle 18-2 or Prindle 19.



I love the NACRA 5.8 and 6.0 but the boards are a bit of a problem in a sound where the charts are about as reliable as the stock market these days. The Hobie 20, and FOX as well as the INTER 20 would have the same issues with the boards.



There are more Prindle 19s out there so you can buy them for less money but you will need to walk before you try to run or you will likely end up a "smoking hole" as pilots say for people who buy the amount of plane they can afford rather than the amount of plane they can handle.



The Prindle 19 is light weight and made of the same core material and polyester resin that all of the other production boats of it's era are made of. You can buy racks (Which I have grown to love) for about $1200 and with a properly set up boat you'll have a nice machine that sails well in relatively flat water and 6-22 knots of wind.



Dont let people fool you with talk about extended set up times, fragile construction or other nefarious concepts. These boats are all triangular rigs basically two shrouds and a forestay. The halyards are all similar. The jib halyards vary slightly but take about the same amount of time to rig and parts availability is roughly the same for all the major builders that are still in business.



Call me TOLL FREE 800 354 7245 if you would like to discuss the other nuances of why I think this is the best choice or stop by the ULTIMATE CATAMARAN BUYERS GUIDE at: http://www.sailingproshop.com/catamaran.htm (Geeez guys, don't go and shoot me for inviting him to take advantage of free advice on this forum)



Have a great week.



Mark Michaelsen

Bigger and more powerful....may not be what we need yet if my wife still asks me to reef the sails when the wind gets high.



Speaking of which, how many cats have reefable sails, other than the P-16? Should this be a concern?



Jonathan

Jonathan,



THe builder/designer of the g-cat line is Hans Geisler -- he'll fix you up with just about anything you want/need. He's not building boats anymore but has a ministry call Northstar- he shows underpriviledge nations how to raise fish/farm fish. Basically, a real nice guy -- real unique. Had a great platform with the G-cats that would fit what your looking for in a family boat. I really enjoyed the 6.0 -- just didn't have a family at the time. Actually, I would get one now just to teach the wife and kids how to sail. Boat has front and rear tramp and is a three beam boat that is sooooo solid. No boards, no head aches. Overall, that's what I'd go for over everything else I have seen mentioned.. Might be a bit difficult to find one -- once people get one they tend to keep it (that has to tell us something). But, if you get a hold of Hans he'll hook you up. Mary ran a small bit about Hans in the last Catsailor so she probably has a way to get in touch with him..



Best of luck.

Steve

I must honestly confess that the only hobies that I never sailed are the TheMightyHobie18, H20 (miracle) and the H21.



So I can't help you here.



I thing I can do is given you some comparison data from teh Texel handicap system



prindle 18

Rating = 110 + 3 (correction for not having daggerboards) = 113

Length 5,47 mtr.

Weight 161 kg's

Mainsail 15,15 sq. mtr.

mainsail luff 7,87 mtr. = about mastlength -0,5 mtr.

Jib area 4,39 sq. mtr.



hobie 18

Rating = 109 with daggerbaords

Length 5,52 mtr.

Weight 183 Kg's

mainsail 15,30 sq. mtr.

mainsail luff 7,83 mtr. = about mastlength - 0,5 mtr.

jib area 5,56 sq. mtr.





Both boats as good as the same length, as good as the same mainsail area and mast height. Although the Prindle is 22 kg's lighter (about 50 lbs) and the TheMightyHobie18 has 25 more jib area.



Performance upwind of the TheMightyHobie18 will be a bit better due to the boards although certainly not overwhelming better. On other courses it is any bodies game, boards aren't really needed there and ofcourse most boardless cats are good reachers and give any boarde cat a good run for their money.



Furling jib no furling jib what ever you want, these things will fit on all boats.



That is all I can do.



Wouter

Once you sail on a winged-cat, you'll never want to sail anything else. The comfort and added excitement of trapping out on top of the wings just makes for a combo that can't be beat, and also, you stay drier on the wings

Steve took the words out of my mouth. We have a few that sail in this area. In fact Hans was at the Barton race this weekend and if you look at the results posted by Bob you'll see the boat is very competive for racing. The front tramp is nice to have. Add a roller furling system for the jib and forget reefing the main.

I know someone who has two 5.7's and may want to part with them.Email me if you want more info.



Mike Catley

Wouter, you are an amazing source of information.



Thanks!



Jonathan

Mark - thanks for the info. I will give you a call when I get some time (it might be next week, this week is pretty tough at work....)



Any suggestions on where to look for Prindle 19s and Prindle 18-2s? I am not seeing many of them for sale, and the prices on the ones that are being sold are a little higher than your online guide would indicate.



Jonathan

By the way, Mark, you mention the problem with the boards, but don't seem to think that the Prindle 18-2 or Prindle 19 would have the same problem with the boards as the other cats. Do the kickup centerboards make that much of a difference?



It sounds like it might be reasonable to think of getting a P-18, Nacra 5.7, or Hobie 18SX in the near run, and moving up to something like a P18-2 or P-19 when we have significantly more experience?



Jonathan