Although I agree with a lot of this, I'm not so sure that replacing elite racing is the only thing that needs to get done. Yes, "every other organizational aspect of sailing is the same today as yesterday". But it's not as if the non-elite sector of the sport was in great shape yesterday. US Sailing, Yachting NZ and others arguably made their decisions because of a perceived lack of coordination, promotion and visibility of multihull sailing as a whole.

I am also still troubled about being a personal member of an organization led by people who have shown themselves to be unwilling to represent the interests of multihull sailors fairly (I'm not at all meaning to tar the MHC with that brush btw). And I'm not talking about "trashing the existing organizations", but still think there is a case for shifting the balance of influence away from MNAs towards a multihull-specific organization.

US Windsurfing might be a good model. Like the MHC it's also a council of US Sailing, but as far as I can tell is an independent organization responsible to its own due-paying membership. I would be much happier supporting an organization like that than US Sailing directly.

Hey, you got it wrong with the F14 concept, hence you failed. You misread the market, thinking that a great design would pull through on its own merits and now you know that that is only halve the picture.

The other project is totally different, although some volunteers in that project are determined to copy the F14 "success". If indeed that project follows the same path then I'm convinced we'll fail as well there.

Wouter

That happened here quite a while ago, for all Hobie classes. It started at the continental level, but I honestly can't remember the last regatta (at any level) that I attended where there was a reaching leg used.

The rationale is that having the reaching leg takes away one side of the course, making that leg "follow the leader." There are plenty of people who think that reaching can be tactical, and if nothing else, FUN! But, it hasn't come up at any meetings that I'm aware of to "force" RCs to reinstate these courses.

Mike

Just got off the phone with the monohull faction of OUR new sailing center getting a recap of last nights meeting I was unable to attend. Fence is up on the mast-up lot, storage shed is built, light poles and electric service to be finished within a week or so.

Now for the good stuff on next years agenda. We discussed the placement of the beach and how critical it is to the attraction of beach cats. AND, we discussed the seperate junior beach where instruction can take place undisturbed and out of traffic. Added benefit of this seperate beach was somewhere for Momma to call home. If Momma "wants" to come, the kids will be there as Youth promotion is so VITAL to ultimate success. Otherwise we're just a bunch of guys trying to steal away for a few hours with the boys each weekend. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

If you or I can't appreciate each others boats for what their purposes are?...I think that's called prejudice, it's a very detrimental thing. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Our club racing is interesting in that regard. We usually do 2-3 races on Sundays: The first race is windward/leeward, subsequent races are a mix of triangles on odd laps and windward/leeward on even laps.

That's a nice mix IMHO. I like reaching, it is fun...

However it makes for some interesting moments when you haven't read the sailing instruction at all. Especially since other boats on the water don't sail the same course at all <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Lasers do a smaller triangle, the fast asymmetrics do windward/leeward only and the others do triangle/sausage. I've messed up a couple of times before reading the SI and figuring out [censored] was going on.

Wouter I think your trying to get 7yr to 14 yr old kids on an international race circuit like F14. What were trying to do is bring kids through the ranks on cats, any cat will do then as they get more skillfull shape them into F14 etc. Your the one that wants to get 7yr olds on 7m square sails with collabsible masts and keep them on the same sail rig untill they get a bigger boat at age 15.
regards

Jeff,

Your description of the situation and my comments is wrong and really I don't have time to set the record straight with everybody that hasn't really tried to understand what is going on.

If you do indeed want to get better acquinted with the F12 project that here is a good place to start reading:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/F12/

Additionally, there is no F14 class. There are just three F14 prototypes in existance and the class is as dead as a dodo at this time. One of the F14 moulds was even offered to the scrapheap. The other boats are basically modified Hobie 14's and there isn't much momentum there either.

Wouter

"No F14 class"? of course there's an F14 class. There's been a shirtload of time, effort and money spent on developing the F14 class and we have two very very good boats currently completed and on the water and competing very successfully. Darryl has made a concerted effort to generate interest with his wonderful videos.
What you mean is that there's no momentum in the F14 classes either new or modified. And why do you think that is the case Wouter??? Could it be that there's no support for anyone who attempts to implement a program for youth sailing because no one cares enough to do what needs to be done, including you. What makes you think that doing something which is, not only totally un-supportive but contrary to all existing efforts, will be successful in attracting any involvement?? As I see it, you're just causing further fragmentation of an already tragically fragmented situation which is further proof that cat people are not interested in the common cause, just self promotion.

If you wish to gain support for your enterprise, please explain to us how introducing yet another 12/14ft catamaran onto an already saturated and depressed market is going to help matters??? We can't even get sufficient support within our own ranks to keep existing designs viable. Forgetting my considerable efforts over the last eight years with the 430, Darryl Barrett has produced a really a great cat. It has the potential to do anything you want it to do in introducing youth to cat sailing but you choose not to give any credence or support to his efforts. No, on the contrary, your grand plan is to further confound existing efforts by introducing yet another class.

Please tell me you're joking........!

I think it's wrong to imagine that there has to be one grand plan that everyone has to coalesce around. The problem with that - which Wouter alluded to, is that you just can't always predict how the market is going to respond to what you think is a slam dunk. Trial and error is ultimately a necessary part of the process. Some will be right and others wrong, and in varying degrees. If people do agree on a strategy that's great, but it doesn't mean that they're going to be right either. A box rule of some kind is a compromise of sorts - at least gets people who may not have completely the same ideas to agree to share the same basic parameters. But regardless of whether people take that approach or not, you've got to give people the freedom to try what they think the market will respond to and then everyone gets to learn from the outcomes. The fact that there are people trying to do good things for youth sailing is something we should celebrate, not bicker about.

Okay, I take that back. The F14 is a class and some F14's are sailing well in regatta's.

For the remainder, I don't have to explain myself to you. Afterall nearly all other youth cats, like the Hobie Dragoon and Arrow, were around when you guys gave the F14 a try and as such the exact same reasoning about splittering and fragmentation could be held about you guys. We never asked you to explain yourself in this regard so why should it be asked of me ?

You guys had several years now to make F14 work and I fail to see how an accelleration in the F12 development now can have negatively influenced the F14 developments so far (what ever they may be).

Fair winds to you.

Wouter

All I'm saying is that the problems we face in cat sailing aren't due to a lack of availability of designs [quite the contrary IMHO] but more, a severe lack of consensus within our ranks. We are significantly fragmented and disorganised. We don't have a 'grand plan'. We don't have a plan full stop! We are not only unsupportive and dismissive of efforts within our discipline to move forward, we seem to even actively campaign against each other.

Wouter, by all means go ahead and do the F12 [not that you need my permission God forbid] but I just wonder why you think an F12 will be any more successful than the F14 effort. Maybe Europe will be more accommodating, I hope so.

After the sham I've experienced here I guess I'm bitter and should just shut up and go fishing but you know, sadly, I just can't help myself <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I didn’t really want to get into this, and it is all a total hijack of this thread, but I feel a little explanation needs to be forthcoming.
1. The F14 concept is not dead, it may be a little sluggish in realisation, but it is definitely not dead.
2. From the excess of 2000 DVD’s that I have sent out worldwide over the past 2 plus years, I have received nothing but very positive response regarding the existing F14 cats and the concept as a whole.
3. To my knowledge there are several projects currently in hand from enthusiastic sailers from various countries who are either in the process of or intend starting in the near future, constructing new 14’ cats to the F14 box rule formula, or are converting existing 14’ cats to fit within that formula.
4. Unlike the start of the F16, which already had a “base” of existing cats spread around the world which could either be readily converted to F16, or already did conform to the F16 dimensions and in so doing these cats created a substantial number already available and sailing to be incorporated under the umbrella of F16, the F14 was/is a concept that has had to start from a place where there wasn’t ANY existing 14’ cats that were similar enough and/or performance orientated enough to just be converted to F14
5. That lack of “convertible” 14’ cats meant that the F14 has had to start from scratch, and as every one knows, that means that it takes time and perseverance to follow such a project through to fruitiion. The last thing it needs is for some one with absolutely no connection to, or real interest in F14’s to shoot off at the mouth and say things like “The F14 is dead”.
6. As far as a “junior” cat is concerned, it is my belief that our current F14 in a slightly different configuration would make a perfect “trainer” for juniors. Firstly we could/would make it in “normal” glass with aluminium beams and a shorter mast with a smaller sail area, but still bring it in at under 90kgs (all up sailing weight), dramatically reducing the overall cost (possibly as low as $6000 or less) this would also have the benefits of lightweight for younger crews to handle on and off the water. The F14 is a very easy and responsive cat to sail as well as to right when ditched and I would estimate that a sailer weighing as little as 40 to 50 Kgs would have little difficulty in righting it single handed. The F14 is very buoyant and would have no problem with a crew of two juniors sailing competitively. Delete the spinnaker if so desired and sail cat rigged one up or with a crew for juniors or we could fit a small jib for two up junior sailing (we did this years ago with the Sundance 4.3)
I will just reiterate that the F14 is not dead it is just going through its embryonic stage – it may take another year, it may take another 5 years but I think that it will make it.

Back on track, this just from Yachting Australia

Multihulls and the 2012 Olympic Games – Yachting Australia’s position

ACtion at the Tornado World Championships 2005
Phil Jones, Friday, 16 November 2007

Yachting Australia has expressed both disappointment and concern over the decision taken last week by the ISAF Council to drop the Multihull from the list of events for the 2012 London Olympic Games. Yachting Australia delegates supported the retention of the multihull event throughout the ISAF Annual Meetings which took place in Estoril, Portugal from 3-11 November.

ISAF was challenged with reducing the number of Olympic events from 11 in 2008 to 10 for 2012 in Weymouth. "To not include the multihull in 2012 is to disenfranchise a large part of the sport of sailing," says Phil Jones, CEO of Yachting Australia and member of the ISAF Events Committee, which recommended that the multihull should be retained. "The speed and excitement of catamarans is a real draw to young people. They are the speed machines of sailboat racing. Whilst there is only a limited number of countries involved in the Tornado Olympic Class, multihull sailing is an attractive and truly global part of the sport."

ISAF has been heeding the clear message from the International Olympic Committee (IOC) over recent years that for the sport to maintain its place on the Olympic Program it must take steps to become more attractive to the media and the public. Changes to the format of the competition have been made and a World Cup Series has been agreed in effort to ensure more regular exposure for Olympic sailing.

"Catamaran racing is fast and comes across as really exciting," says Phil Jones. "The Tornado is one of the most telegenic boats in the Olympic Regatta. The boats are big enough to carry on board cameras and tracking devices that can really bring the contest to life for the viewer. To not have a place for it, or another multihull, is a real step backwards for a sport that has the challenge of building its profile. For us, there was just no focus on the bigger, long-term picture."

Yachting Australia is also concerned over the process by which the multihull was excluded. The ISAF Council voted to change the process recommended for the selection of the events. This meant that there was no "run-off" vote between the Multihull and the Keelboat.

"There was no real discussion over the implications of the change. It altered the fundamental principles of the recommended system." says Phil Jones. "Some consider that the change, which was taken on a motion from the floor, was taken with undue haste. Certainly many around the Council did not seem to appreciate the full implications of the change. Those that used their first vote to support other events may well have backed the multihull over the keelboat had they had the opportunity. This change denied them this opportunity. I am sure that having had time consider the implications, many will recognise that the change, put forward as a mere simplification, was much more than this."

Yachting Australia is concerned over the reaction to the ISAF Council decision. "We understand that some will be very disappointed but the personal and vitriolic attacks that we have seen do nothing to help the cause of those making them. In fact, they only do damage. Yachting Australia does not consider this type of reaction appropriate in any way."

Yachting Australia is considering what further action, if any, can be taken to revisit the decision. "However much we might disagree, if we felt the decision had been properly considered and made with those around the table fully understanding the implications, we would accept it. Obviously we don't consider that this is the case. We shall be discussing the issue with colleagues from other countries and IOC representatives over the next few days before deciding how we proceed."

It'd be interesting to know who put the motion?

Berny,

I don't really mind when someone blows off steams and gives me verbal beating on the forum. I just hit back and that is it. I won't loose any sleep over it.

I think you are indeed right about lack of real organisation among catsailors and the classes. No argument there. I'm so sure if we are actively campaigning against eachother, if anything that is accidental when it happens.

I believe the F12 will be more succesful then the F14 IF the F12 project is succesful at staying with the design goals as stated in Januari 2007. If we try to make it a wide open formula class then I'm convinced it will fail to. Basically what we need is a small inexpensive and easily build/rigged craft like the laser dinghy that is part of a OD class structure (NOT SMOD) where less important parts can be changed at will. The F14 class was indeed a formula class with wide open class rules and it was neither inexpensive enough nor easily build. The F12 has a whole game plan next to the design itself (in promo, production and reinvestments into the class). The F14 in all honesty didn't. Actually several design choices are made to improve aspects of the class that are not directly related to performance or the design itself. The choice for the slightly less performaning unstayed rig with a mast made from standardized alu tubing is a direct results of the decision to lower production costs and improve availability in much poorer area's of the world. The beams are actually the same section as the bottom of the mast. And there are several other points like this as well. As such it is fundamentally different from the F14 and most other 12 to 14 foot cats out there like the Hobie Wave. Basically, the F12 (as designed by my right now) can be complete build using standardized parts there are no catamaran specific basic parts used like extruded mastsections.

As a result my design can now be made for less then 2500 Euro's when commercially buying your mast, sail and rudders. When you make these then less then 1500 can be achieved. The design goal was less then 3000 Euro's. When sourcing components locally in say the US it is now possible to build for less then 3000 USD.

As such this design is significantly cheaper to build then as good as all other sail boats out there except the Optimist. It will however out perform nearly all of these with the exception of the Hobie 14 and F14. So the F12 is much simpler to build, very inexpensive and still acceptably performant. As such it is totally different from the F14, which is not easy to build (carbon mast and beams, spinnaker), nor inexpensive (9000 USD) but much more performant. The F12 is also rigged muhc quicker.

I feel that the F12 as described about strikes a much better balance between performance and associated costs. I also believe that the F14 is far more aimed at a different market segment.


Now can we get back to the Tornado being kicked from the Olympics ?

Wouter

It's all related and quite relevent to the discussion Wouter.

Anyone else getting unsolicited bulk email on the ISAF/Tornado topic? I've gotten one from Simon Morgan and one from Mark Hansen forwarding a message from John Williams.

I wonder where they got my email address from. I'm not annoyed by it, just surprised at the lengths some folks are going to.

The one I sent Mark wasn't really intended to be forwarded - it was an update to the MHC ExCom on status and planning.

I got the "Simon Morgan" note this morning, too. I had assumed it was sent via the MHC website where my e-mail is listed.

I am getting John's which I want to recieve, but none of the other's.

I got none but would like both <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Some relevant stuff
http://sailjuiceblog.com/2007/11/16/australia-calls-for-a-multihull-re-vote/
http://rule69blog.com/archive/2007/november/955/

The comments at the end here are quite good. Especially the procedure changes stuff
http://sailjuiceblog.com/2007/11/11/bundys-blast-at-isaf/