Thats NOT what Im hearing Wouter....sailing being dropped is a distinct possibility

Ahhh, but that is only the way how one presents his or her intentions


We're not threatening anything, just evaluating the benefits of organising ourselves.

We're are not being ungrateful, oh no, we are just extending on their excellent support through other channels. Afterall, it is not fair to them that they have to carry the whole weight by themselves.

We are not being nasty or rude. To the contrary, in official documentation we are most definately requesting them politely to re-evaluated their stance for any unintentional oversights with respect to the IOC stated prefered policy.

A split ? Certainly not, we are quite happy here in our most succesful MHC committee. So much in fact that we need a larger support structure to lessen the burden on these committee members. We think it unfair to put the burnden of this larger organisation upon (insert name of local MNA) so we organise it ourselves. All towards maximizing the effectiveness of the MHC (= working from within), certainly you (insert name of local MNA) support this wholely ? (if opponent says no then he will have caused the split, so he won't say no, which in turn means he has just accepted the additional organisation even if he didn't want to do that.)

That is how you play power and influence games. And I dislike those games with a passion, even when I know how to do it.

Wouter

The US multihull world is too split to stand on its own.

Let's say you own a Nacra. Who's your friend: The local Yacht Club that lets you sail in their regattas, or the local Hobie Fleet that won't?

There's more US YC's that welcome Nacras than Hobie Fleets that won't.

I'm still trying to figure out what all the 3, 4 and 5 letter acronyms stand for.
I don't pretend to know much about all this.
What I think I do know is that taking your ball and going elsewhere doesn't work.
Eventually men have to sit around the table and work things out. We need strong men that command attention(not beg for it)around that table to get our views heard. This means to strengthen your argument and not raise your voice.
I'm behind what John, Tom and others are trying to do.
Cancelling your memberships to any sailing organization is just childish and probably plays right into the oppositions hands.

Pat

Apologies for the acronyms just assume that everyone knows what they stand for...hope this helps

ISAF-International Sailing Federation (don't ask I've never known what the A stands for!!!!!)
IOC-International Olympic Commission
MNA-Member National Authority
RYA-Royal Yachting association
MHC-MultiHull Council
UKCRA-United Kingdom Catamaaran Racing Association
YA-Yachting Australia
YNZ-Yachting New Zealand

The more reason to diversify our options.

Again assume that indeed IOC is looking to ditch sailing alltogether. It will be much more attactive to them to do that in steps then in one go. This is a situation where slick people make a large gains.

We can either hope that ISAF doesn't screw up or try to get an alternative of the ground that can be ready in time to offer IOC what they want.

IOC doesn't care much whether sailing is in or out, it is the costs that interests them and the status associated with the Olympics. Removing a whole branch of sport is good for costs but not good for status. Especially not an old event like sailing. Nobody cares about sailing, but everybody cares about a whole event being ditch, partly because that highlights their own possible vunerability.

What if a viable organisation can offer to do a more exiting version of sailing from a large empty grass field as facilities and for a 25% of the costs ? Basically have only 6 events ; laser, moth, higher performance 2-up skiff, multihulls, boards. All open class and Aussie 18 foot skiff style reporting. Pay those Spitfire and Rocklegde engineering camera men to do a week of Olympic filming with all expenses paid and some earnings.

When presented with the choice of risking all that opposition to removing sailing altogether or downsizing it while upgrading its attractiveness and significantly lower its costs, which will they choose ?

If ISAF is bound to screw this one up (and it looks very probable that way) then we better having something to jump in and limit the damage.

Ones we proof that the new concept works and that sailing can be exiting and telegenic then we can extend the number of classes again and grow the sport of Olympic sailing. Maybe even at a later stage get some match racing and keel boat sailing in when we are succesful in creating sufficient revenue ourselves by the new reporting.

I feel we can do it.


And if we IOC is not serious considering dropping sailing then nothing is lost by having more options. That will always come in handy at one point in the future.

Wouter

NFB = Nederlandse Federatie Brandingssporten

The Dutch Surf Sports Federation a direct rival to the KNWV (Royal Dutch Watersports Union) when it comes down to multihull sailing and Sport fishing on the sea.

Basically, the KNWV didn't feel that multihulls were real boats or save enough to be sailed and so these were less then enthousiastic about them back in the 70's. So the multihull sailors joined forces with another group of unrepresented sporters and formed the NFB. It is an independent organisation from the main sailing associated national organisation.

Since then the two organisations have increasingly worked together although some strain is still there. By far most Cat clubs are members of NFB and not of KNWV. The balance of power is keeping everybody straight.

This is one example of where "taking the ball and play somewhere else" was hugely succesful. Without it we wouldn't even have had a Dutch catamaran sailing scene of any significance.

Wouter

This is the type of problem that could possibly be reduced by an international multihull federation association and its multihull country federation.

There's something I would like to add to my "the split won't work" post:

While fighting within ISAF is the best (only) alternative on the short term, taking the oportunity to start multihull federations, etc. is an inteligent move.

- It puts more pressure on the short term issue (2012 equipment).
- It creates an alternative path for the future, in case ISAF keeps mutihulls out.
- It can be reverted very easily by making it part of ISAF organization, if and when desired.

In other words, although I don't believe a split with ISAF will put a multihull in the games (in the short and medium term), I support the creation of the association due to the implications.

It will probably work like spliting from a party to make a more radical one. Some of the proposals from the original party will start to look more acceptable in comparison with those of the new radical party.

If multi-hull sailing was to split from the ISAF, which racing rules would we use ?

I'm sure the ISAF won't be too happy about "us" using theirs, how about those that HAVE to work with the ISAF?

What about some of us who sail other classes?

What about those that WORK for the ISAF (And I do not mean me with SCHRS)

Froming a world-wide multi-hull association to lobby the ISAF on appropiate issues - yes, a good idea.


Split from the ISAF, not a good idea and such discussions make us look stupid. It is a non-starter.

I dont agree that going somewhere else won't work or that its childish, I think the same things could be said about staying with the current organization.

What makes US Sailing Multihull Council work is the MULTIHULL sailors within that group that volunteer their time. I am 100% confident that multihull sailors could generate all of the benefits we currently get from US Sailing AND be in a better position to focus on a multihull sailing in the future in a seperate organization.

I do however have a great amount of respect for JW and all of the other folks that volunteer on our behalf, and I will problably rejoin US Sailing if they think its worth supporting them.

What worries me is that a great deal of our (multihulls) progress within US Sailing has been a result of a lot of effort by a relatively small group of people. What happens as they move onto other things over time?

This is has always has been the biggest issue, Involvement. It takes people to instigate change or even just to keep it running the way that it is. The few who do have made a big difference, but more volunteers are needed.

I have to say at the outset that I am an advocate of multihulls governing themselves totally. That said I would like to give my reasons for this opinion.
For over 20 years I worked “WITHIN” the YA system for multihulls. I have been on many committees of yacht clubs, and state yachting bodies, as well as being vice commodore and commodore of more than one yacht club, so I have had “a little” first hand experience” of the workings of “the system” all the way from the bottom right up to the top. In all that time, no matter how hard and how diligently I, and many other “multihull” people worked from within the system, any and all proposals that we put forward, no matter how minor (or major), when it came to the crunch, were always voted down. We were continuously offered “carrots” to placate us if/when we showed signs of dissatisfaction with the treatment of multihulls (as well as being told repeated “don’t rock the boat, it will only work against you – sound familiar?), all of which, when it came time for action on those carrots, “things” had moved on and all promises vanished into obscurity. I fully understand people saying that “we have to work WITHIN the system”, and for many years I was a great advocate of that opinion, but after more than 20 years of “batting my head against a brick wall” with NOTHING actually changing (except the promises), I finally realised that, no matter who or what was “in there” working for multihull benefit, NOTHING would ever really change unless the system as a whole changed. Committees, councils, association, all have the same bad points when it comes to the final decisions made and that is that, it doesn’t matter who or what or how they are made up, there will always be “political” agendas, whereby the most powerful (by their numbers) and most influential, will always carry the day. The one thing that all the yachting authorities have in common is that non-multihull interests dominate them, and no matter how active multihull sailors are in placing THEIR members onto those bodies, they will NEVER gain the majority voting position. How can anyone with half an ounce of intelligence think for one minute that so many “pro mono hulled” thinking people are ever going to “look kindly” on the poor multihull sailor and vote them (the multihulls) any benefits at the reduction of their own personal interest area (mono)? Apart from all else human nature is against it as well as history, so what makes anyone think that ANYTHING will change?
All the time that I was actively involved with YA’s, one of the most fundamental areas that hurt so much was the allocation of funding for “junior” sailing. Every year funding became available from the national body for juniors, and in spite of several different multihull association having active junior training programs, and purchasing several junior catamarans (11’ Arrafura cadets”) for that purpose, ALL funding was allocated to monohull sailing, even to the extent of funding going in preference to an active multihull program, to a class of dingy where only three were available in the whole of the state, without any active class and with no junior training in that class, or any intention of starting any training.
Similar instances, (to many to detail), of funding going to low membership numbered mono hull classes to assist with the running of their national titles, while application from multihull classes with membership numbers in their hundreds for similar funding would go completely ignored and unanswered.
There are many similar examples of the same sort of treatment of multihulls that I have witnessed and I won’t bore you with a chronology, but I would make the point that in all this time, and with all the work that good, competent, active, people have attempted for the benefit of the multihull community NOTHING HAS CHANGED!!! It is still ALL going on as it always has and I for one can see no way for that to change while the mono hull interest parties dominate the administration of this sport (and US).

When the appointed authority doesn't represent the views of its members, there will always be talk of mutiny.

And there should be talk, because talk is the first step towards action, and without the threat of action, the authority will not be pressured to listen.

Everyone should do what they think is right, that way all bases are covered and all levels of the authority will feel some kind of pressure.

However, abuse should not be tolerated, it only leads to defensiveness from the authority.

Those are seconday issues to be solved in the medium term, if and when we get there.

In the short term, we are interested in the effects of a split from ISAF being seriously considered as a consequence of their bad decision. This development will certainly add weight to the request for a new vote.

"Hey guys, they are not only pissed of, they are considering living ISAF and making their own Federation. If things start going this way, each time a class is replaced we'll loose control over more people/classes. We don't want to weaken and shrink. Let's negotiate something so that we stop the trend before it develops, keep our numbers and retain control".

Makes sense to you?

OK, <'THE' CRA MEETING>

For a first attempt it went well.

To begin, a temporary committee of three conducted/chaired the meeting and until I get a copy of the minutes, names and finer details will have to wait although both Darren Bundock [Bundy] and John Goldsmith were at the table. Most of the 30 odd attendees were sailors from clubs, some involved at management level. Phil Jones and the Head of Training [don't know his name] represented YA.

There was a lot of discussion about a lot of issues although there were two main and differing agendas. They did overlap to an extent but the cross enthusiasm for each was more than a little unbalanced as I saw it.

On the one hand we had a lot of cat sailors, club managers etc., who's main focus and enthusiasm was for developing cat sailing/racing to a point where it becomes more popular, and more fun for us all with bigger fleets and better organised clubs and regattas, and to a lesser extent, making it less likely to be ignored by YNSW, YA, ISAF and the IOC, with the ISAF/IOC component a secondary issue. On the other hand there were those [YA reps and Olympic hopefulls] who's main focus was/is on having catamarans re-instated as an Olympic discipline. On this issue, the driver for YA and ISAF is that if cat sailing is not reinstated, sailing in general [monohulls] is in danger of being eliminated from The Games due to it not fully complying with IOC criteria, i.e., not well supported by a majority of Nations, not spectator or TV friendly, and not very exciting [Finn/Star/Laser etc.]

Interestingly, a poll taken during the meeting asking which boat out of the F18, H16 [no spi], A class, and Tornado would be preferred by those present as the Olympic cat revealed a preference for the F18 Tiger. Sadly, the F14 or F16 [my favourite] were not listed as an option.

Much of the discussion from the sailor's and club manager's group was about ways to improve numbers at the clubs and from that it was pretty much unanimous that clubs need to focus on youth training. Darren Bundock was very much behind this idea and keen to get involved, even to the point of jumping on a Maricat once a month and racing at selected clubs, wooo hoooo. There were plenty of different ideas on how to achieve this but the discussion was deferred for a later time when the council is fully formed and legitimate, and in a position to get some serious work done.

The most disappointing [but not unexpected] revelation was that, while YA needs us, [cat sailors] to be progressive and supportive of their endeavours to have the Tornado, or some other exciting catamaran reinstated and retained with IOC status, they really don't seem to want to have very much, if anything to do with helping us make it happen. I'm not even sure what it is they would like us to do other than maybe provide our vocal support for that endeavour. That part isn't clear, not to me anyway, but what was clear is; YA think CRA [potentially a National Body] should conduct all it's operations under the control of the state bodies, YNSW, YVIC, YSA. etc. Now as I see it, those bodies have no teeth whatsoever when it comes to negotiating with YA. These state representative bodies have no members as near as I can tell. With individual sailors now paying their fees directly to YA, they are in essence members of YA not YNSW etc. So, I'm very confused about the fact that YA want our help, and are prepared to help in an advisory capacity, but beyond that, they suggest any significant input/help we seek, in particular funding, must come from the State bodies.

Now given that we as cat sailors, until now have never been shown any interest from YA, and even less interest from YNSW et al, my question is; what's in it for us, the ordinary week end jocks? I can see how having a cat in the Olympics could be helpful in attracting young sailors who have an ambition to race for gold, and I don't in any way want to minimise the importance of that more than it is, but really, even though Darren and Glen are very nice blokes and I'm in absolute awe of their abilities as sailors and their Olympic successes, and I think we should continue to support their efforts in a reasonable manner, will it make any difference to the blokes at CRSC or Mannering Park, or Kurnell or Koonawarra Bay, or Great Lakes Sailing Club etc., or the Taipan Assn., if sailing is dropped altogether from the Olympics???? I don't think it'll matter diddly, but I could be wrong.

Na, we need to be shown more respect, we need to be treated with more dignity than to be told, "we need your help desperately" but, "sorry guys, there's no help available here, not from YA" [and this came from the head of YA training/coaching], and probably, if history is any judge, 'not from your State bodies either' he should have added.

So, what to do?

Personally I think we should get behind this new CRA venture 100%. We are going to need people to put their hand up for committee positions so there's a commitment to be made there. I'm not sure how that will happen amongst cat sailors. We're not too good at that but I think we really do need to build cat racing into a more credible and viable enterprise so that we are more professional and have some influence and some decent dollars to spend on ourselves etc., etc.,

Like it or not, the language in the world of viability and credibility is $$$$$. Then if YA, ISAF, IOC want a piece of our action, [or if coincidentally they benefit from our success] well and good, and if they don't, then maybe Darren and Glen will need to jump on a Star. ;^) .................Just Joking Bundy!

Bottom line is, I think we really need to do this for us!

Berny.

Going to Yachting South Australia for junior cat development would be a total joke I couldn't even get help of anykind for a junior program for 420's. If we split into little groups we may as well do what were doing now p??sing into the wind.

Let me be quite clear, the consensus was that this new body, CSA or CRA should work within the current establishment of YA, ISAF. There was no discussion or no intension to split. On the contrary, the general feeling was that we develop this association to strengthen our position within the existing framework.

Quote
Let me be quite clear, the consensus was that this new body, CSA or CRA should work within the current establishment of YA, ISAF. There was no discussion or no intension to split. On the contrary, the general feeling was that we develop this association to strengthen our position within the existing framework.
end quote

We did that years ago Berny, when things were becoming “lopsided” against the multihulls within the YA in the late 70’s, early 80’s. At the request of the YA, all the catamaran associations formed an overall combined association to work for multihulls – by multihull sailors -, and to report back monthly to the YA any decisions that we had come to in a democratic way. We were led to believe by the YA that we were an independent, decision making, full committee of the YA and as such our recommendations and decisions would not have to go to “the floor” of the general YA, but instead would go straight to the executive for consideration, In so doing we would bypass all the “hassle” of having to put up each and every point individually as a motion to the “floor” consisting of representatives from every yacht club and class association, which outnumbered the multihull reps at a ratio of about 10 to 1. This ratio obviously made it very difficult to have any motion of ours, not only voted on in our favour, but it also made it very difficult at times to even bring a motion to the vote. After this multihull committee had reported back to the YA for over a year with not one of it’s recommendations or decisions having been acted upon, the question was raised at the annual general meeting of the YA, why had the multihull committee not had any response from the YA concerning the work that it had carried out for a whole year. The answer that was given and minuted, was that we were not (as we were told) a “committee” of the YA BUT we were merely a sub committee of the keel boat association and that all our reports had been forwarded to them for consideration and had been acted on as they saw fit – in other words, they were thrown in the rubbish and not even minuted or kept–
This is the way of the empowered to the disenfranchised in all walks of life, tax them, then ignore them if possible, and if they make a nuisance of themselves, side track them until they “get the message” and just take what they are given without questions.

What I am saying is that everything that is being said NOW, both for and against, has all happened and been said before. This is a perfect case of “history repeating itself”! All the same ideas, both of “working within the system” and of “breaking away, have been all argued just as strongly before, not over Tornadoes being dropped from the Olympics, but over the same principles of inequality and favouritism within the governing authorities of sailing. The last time this mood prevailed within the multihull community, the route taken was one of a renewed vigour within the system to try to initiate “change” from within. It was considered that within 10 to 20 years from then multihulls would be far better integrated within the general sailing community and they would have a far more equitable input into decision making for sailing and a far better result for multihulls.
I have to say that IT DIDN’T HAPPEN THEN AND IT WON’T HAPPEN NOW!! Nothing will change while multihulls are “controlled” administratively by the YA’s and the ISAF. If there isn’t a clean break from the ISAF we will be having this same “generational” argument again in another 10 or 20 years.
“If history is forgotten then we are condemned to repeat the same mistakes over and over”.

In mulling all this over, I have to say that Darryl's posting just reinforces a gut feeling I have, and it keeps coming back to that definition of insanity - continually doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result.

I applaud the work of the MHC in US Sailing, and wish them success, and some day I may find the time to join in and help out (work and family commitments kept me from the call-in recently, unfortunately).

But, as I will probably keep my US Sailing membership (although I'm ambivalent about it), I know that my efforts to get other cat sailors to join will be even harder now. In the past the question was always "what does US Sailing do for us", and given what has gone on that question will be much harder to answer. If it cares, US Sailing needs to make a genuine gesture to help its cause. It needs to be real, and not some cynical placation thing like trumpeting support for two events and voting for none. If there is nothing, then most will take this as further proof of their intentions. In other words, the ball is just as much in their court as ours - we can be nice, play along, beg, plead, etc., but in the end if the other side is deaf to us it will come to nothing.

As for the rules - if multi-sailing were to split there is no reason not to continue using the same rules. They can't come out to our clubs and tell us to stop using them. There are many clubs that use them that have affiliation with US Sailing and ISAF. What you can't do is publish the same rules and claim you wrote them, that's all. In fact, it's the one uniting thing we have in common with other sailors, and us knowing them helps the respect game within the whole scene.

All this having been said, I'm not fan of kicking the keel boats out of the Olympics either, although I question a class that requires the foredeck crew to become obese for the purposes of hiking ballast - great example for sports. In many ways the Star is similar to the Tornado - it's an old design that has been kept alive by participation and updates to the rig and platform.

Like others, I believe the mix should include a women's high-performance dinghy, a keel boat, and a multi. Drop the Finn - it's the only class designated for a weight class. Maybe it's time to swap the Star for a more modern keel boat - maybe the i550 (a home buildable 18' sport boat) would fit the bill, and would be more exciting and accessible for sure. Perhaps arguing for a full slate that includes the monos will help our cause, to help it being seen as more than just the cat sailors whining. I don't know.

As much as I feel frustrated for the cause of multi sailing, I really feel frustrated for sailing overall, because I really think the current slate of events will do little to enhance the image of the sport overall. Even the windsurfers - with pumping allowed, light air races are just bizarre to watch, and although I appreciate the conditioning that must be done to do that, I think most people (including myself) when seeing it on TV for a whole regatta just think it's time switch channels. Don't know how to fix that, they should be a part of the game but it doesn't represent well in those cases.