It was the Finn parties that were really good....now they know how to party...sorry lobby <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Once again I agree with JW, reasoned arguments is the way forward. The petition does help so make sure you and your friends have signed it.

However I do feel that the T if it is chosen and does get back does not neccesarily have to look at changing the guard but maybe looking at the way it is perceived. The perception is that a T is expensive...ok it isn't cheap...but one of the ways possibly of reducing the cost perception is to introduce one design sails...(expect to be shot down in flames for saying this)

On an aside maybe we should also look at the way multihull racing is done at the Olympics.... to show that we are something different...maybe a multi staged long distance race? With some of the back drops of the UK sure to be a TV pleaser

But does USSA really want sailing in the Olympics?

Where do the Finn's and 470's and all the other classes get money from...sponsors that want to see that class in the Olympics.

It looks like the Tornado class took its collective eye off the ball and didn't believe a decision against them would be made, whereas every other class thought they might be the ones to go. Hence the final outcome...

The “ball” being ISAF incompetence. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

They are one-design already. You probably mean they should use cookie-cut sails.., one sail for all sailors, no matter what weight, ability, etc. But, that is NOT one-design.
Rick

That is correct Rick...that is what I meant

But I could hardly say that the sails are one-design at the moment with variations in cuts, cloths etc...ALL TOTALLY LEGAL, but one of the criticisms I have been hearing is that its too expensive to campaign a T due to the cost of developing sails...although being honest the top guys tend to all use the same spinnakers the Gran Segal Mkiv, but mains and jibs do vary as do cuts.

After you get the sails taken care of, then you can work on the masts.

I had a chance to listen to Johnny Lovell talk about their campaign (and others) last spring. The number of masts they were using and testing was mind-numbing! And these weren't cheap, Home Depot masts!!!

Ok Im confused...
No Olympic campaign is cheap.. Ts are overbuilt and thus last a lot longer than other Olympic boats apart from the Star...
Yes the up-front cost is higher then I believe there will be hulls that are 2 campaigns old sailing at this olympics.. How many lasers can one say that? Anyone like to guess at 49ers? 470s?
As for one design unless the definitions of one design have changed Ts are one design.. Thus their sails are one design..

Umm.. again you think 49ers don't have spares? When the worlds was here, every serious team had at least a complete spare hull and one mast per race day. Extra wings and plates etc..

Btw anyone know what a rowing shell is worth?
What about a horse? I doubt if show jumping is a cheap sport.. Then maybe it is.. Anyone know what it costs to buy and train a jumper and feed it as well as pay to keep it healthy?
Even we could talk about shooting.. What is a top of the line shotgun worth? then add cartridges for training etc? Cant be cheap either.. I guess a small bore will be cheap then I don't know..
Then we can add the cost of transport and living etc..

Fact is every elite athlete is looking for an edge.. No matter what that edge is or how small, even if its psychological.. So I suspect at that level in every sport one will find, they spend whatever they "have to", to gain that edge and elusive gold medal..

I agree with all you say...what I am trying to get at is the perception have of the T is that it is expensive. As many campaigners will say the cost of sails is a small prportion of any campaign. One of the ways I was putting froward of reducing they perception of costs is to have a one manufacturer one cut policy aka laser 49er.

You can hardly call the T sails one design as Mitch Booth once said they for every 10 suits of sails they develop they may take 9-12 steps back or possibly take 1 step forward...hardly one design when people are talking about development

T's are NOT one design. they are a limited development class.

yes, hull shapes are very tightly controled. Masts are SMOD at present. Sails are NOT one design.

But why? The developments are so small and the technology is for sale after the seasons big event? The Gran Mk-4 was a quantum leap, but since then there has not been any really large developments speedwise when it comes to sails. The top teams go trough spis like crazy, but the working sails lasts for a season. If the idea is to alter perception, we should think a bit about why people think the Tornado is so expensive to campaign. We know that the boat isn't the real expensive, neither are the sails, but travel and not having a regular income. That is the same for all campaigns. Perhaps a study over different classes "standard" budgets would be just as good? Or limit the number of sails a team measures over a season? It is not effective as they could build them and do two boat testing, but at least the perception of actively limiting cost would be there then. Myself, I much prefer to keep todays "great equalizer" the open saildesign offers and rather work with information. I.e. commision a study on budgets.

I suspect sailing as a sport is perceived to be expensive a as whole.. The public sees the budgets for an AC campaign.. They look at an Open 60 Tri season or even the local offshore boat regatta.. Many of these events are associated with high end luxury goods (Rolex or Cartier etc). These makers want/need exclusivity, and will pay to enhance that exclusivity. Don't believe me go through magazines and look at the ads. Watches being advertised by some guy, girl or group sailing on a 45 foot IRC boat. This then "rubs off" on the sport in general..

Then, I doubt if its any less expensive from an off-shore power boat season or polo season.. Heck my girlfriends father just purchased a new but second tier glider for his advancement in that sport. A cool $150K (not including freight or insurance) and its not up to state gliding title performance as the design is now over a decade old..

Ok maybe.. Then at the worlds here, the top teams of 49ers changed sails (especially kites) as quickly and as frequently as they do their undies and the 49er is a SMOD class..

All top elite sailing teams, no matter what class, go through vast numbers of sails over a regatta and season.. having SMOD sail ruling will not change that..

As far as I know, the Carbon masts were only to be SMOD for with first two years after introduction in '04. This to allow Marstrom to recoup design costs. But, there was to be a royalty paid to Marstrom for any other builder and Marstrom design/layup & bend characteristics were to be adhered to. This was the original carbon mast arrangement...not sure it was implemented as planned. The concept was to lock down performance advantages from different alloy extrusion runs to avoid teams having to test a few dozen sticks before settling on a couple of favourites. However, even the carbons are showing variations, so I'm not sure we've improved the situation much.

Hulls are allowed to vary in measurement from a the class approved templates. Modern Marstroms are noticably different in hull shape than builds from the 70's and 80's. The Marstrom is fuller in the rocker area forward of the main beam; finer bow entry; more rounded gunwales; much rounder in the sterns; etc.


Sails are allowed to vary according the class measurements.

Even approved laser aluminium masts vary.

hull variation has its limits. This was originally put there so home builders could be reasonably expected to make minor mistakes and still build a one design boat. Professional builders can now build to within mms of stations and do to fair lines.. Still the hulls are one design.. I cant recall exactly the limits but I doubt if error margin is large.

As for the stick.. if the same mold is used or a "carbon copy" and layup is used then its still smod. Example the 49er .. the master male mold has had a few female molds pulled off it.. One was shipped to each continent for local "authorised" manufacturers to make a registered 49er hull.. The layup is defined and the mold is standard.

S

I think there is a 10mm variation permitted at certain points when measuring with the hull templates. It would certainly be a challenge to build to the templates with stressed ply at home.

The carbon masts has to go trough a deflection test when measured, this is where the differences show up. They are not identical, but quite close. These data used to be available on the ITA website. We had quite a debacle on the topic at the time and I am not certain how much really came out of the change to carbon masts.

There is a 10mil tolerance in the templates. We pushed the bows to the maximum at the gunwales, full rocker from 3' in front of the main beam and half way through the tramp area. The measement at the transom was pushed to the minimum tolerance allowed. Even though it is a controlled shape, there are variations in the measement that allow for intentional design differences.

I am assuming by 10mil you mean 10 millimeters (mm)

A "mil" is 1000th of an inch. 10mils is a very tight tolerance (100th of an inch).