While I am a big fan and proponent of developing a catamaran to catch the attention of kids sailing today and to create a class that they can race. The concept is daunting. Just looking at the boat drawn here, several concerns come to mind. How many impacts are these boats going to be able to take t-boning each other at full speed. Remember, it's kids sailing these boats, it's going to happen. Is the construction used going to be able to handle years of being carelessly dragged up and down beaches, and launch sites? Can a child right the boat unassisted? I spent this past weekend watching a large opti regatta, between the RWB fleets, and the green fleet, there were probably 100 opti's on the water. Some of these kids are good, real good, but are they ready for this boat? Most kids don't graduate from an opti, to a 420 or laser (4.7 or Radial for that matter), until they are 12 or so. The opti provides a safe, reliable introduction to sailing for kids under that age. Putting them on a cat with the performance potential of this boat is scary to say the least. Instead of trying to find a boat to compete with the opti, we need to find a boat to compete with the laser and 420. This may be it, but we are fooling ourselves if we think it's wise to have kids sail and race this boat instead of an opti. Just my 2 cents, flame away.

I've re-read Phill's original post and still see no reference to Opti's, only the Laser.

You're right, but opti's were mentioned in other posts and threads of this subject.

Beautiful boat Phil. Ksurfer2 I'm not too worried about speed and power as that just comes down to the size of sail you put on it to match the conditions to the kid. The pain is having multiple sails.
Lots of different design 12ft cats out there with piles of screaming young houligans on them yeah lets do it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
regards

You're right John, Optis aren't specifically mentioned, I may have read into this too much "very young kids."

A very young kid (to me) is a six-year-old. As mentioned by others here, Optis have all sorts of advantages that we need to overcome (they are slow, crash-resistant, and "self-righting").

True, we don't HAVE to overcome this, or target six-year-olds. But, it would take a very blind person not to see that in most areas (and there are some good exceptions), the Optis feed directly into the next mono class, and not into cats.

That's why I think it's critical to have a cat that a six-year-old can sail, to bypass the Opti completely. It needs to be WAY slower than we would want to sail as adults, yet still be exciting enough to entice kids to sail.

Mike

We have 12 year old kids drive landyachts at 50mph speeds overhere. You'll be surprised how "brave" they are when they are allowed to start in easy winds and build themselves up to more challenging conditions.

Wouter

You should see some of the crazy stuff 10 year old kids can do on a motocross track.

Very cool looking boat. What does an opti cost? Price would be a factor as well if it were to be more than a home-built boat.

You guys are just SOOOOO not listening...

It really doesn't matter what a 10 or 12 year old is willing to do, it's arguably just too late by then.

Mike

Opti's are 2500-3500 US dollars, upgrade to the black spar package and its more. Lots of used boats(Opti's)and lots of fleets. Youre just not hoing to take away the market or the fleets with any cat...BUT...
You can capture the 10-12 year old market, the "graduating class" of Optis sailors, and thats where we should focus.
The Opti is THE boat to learn on, not a cat in any form. Let them get the basics, racing/starting down, then let them mature, then hand them the keys to a cat.
I have just started with my 8 yr old, and now Im getting my 5 yr old ready to sail an Opti next year. I plan on doing 10 or so regattas with my kids this coming year, mostly watching them, but maybe a H16 ride with the oldest kid in a race or 2. But in a few years, I want my sons sailing Phils 12 footer, and I promise not to let the bigotry of the monohull world influence them negatively : )


Brucat, on a light wind day maybe an 8 yr old can handle a cat(mine does quite well), but when it blows, they are not strong enough yet(IMHO) get them on YOUR boat when they are young, thats all they need to see, they will be hooked on the speed, I promise.

Depends on the kid. My 7 year old grand daughter went out with me on my Hobie 17 in 20 knots and LOVED it. We were like a ping pong ball in a washing machine with 3 foot chop on the bay. Downwind was a roller coaster ride and she was grinning from ear to ear. No two kids are alike, I think it is a GREAT design. Phil when you get a builder lined up let me know. Think you will have another hit like your F-16

Doug

Doug, I bet she wasnt driving and working the main... Thats why Im saying Optis, then cats.

I'm not so sure.

We need something to compete with the 29er at the point when kids change up from the Oppi / Topper.

I went Topper and then Dart 18 crew at 11 and helming a Dart 18 at 12. BUT the 29er did not exists then. I still sailed Toppers in the squad as we "had to"; but that was Saturday's sailing and then I did "proper" sailing on Sunday on the Cat.

If the 29er existed, I could have seen me going that route as it does look cool. I went the Dart 18 route because it looked cool (and this was 28 years ago).

Phil knows what he is doing. I'm sure the platform will be stable and he has enough width to make it so. and with enough purchase, sheeting should not be a problem. I think we to try to come up with a CAT to get them young. NOT try to change then after they are already a mono sail. That is what we need to revive the sport.

Just my 2 cents from 27 years of doing this.

Doug

Damn! Gimme 2 of those! Now you are talkinf serious attraction.

Good points. Most of the safety concerns can be solved with good engineering, like rubrails, righting pole, some reinforcements in the right places, etc.

This size cat would seem to be too much for kids under 12, but only when sailed singlehanded. Just put two on board the beginers version, with a small sail (quite easy with a freestanding rig) and it might take the startup monotype monopoly from the Optimist.

In fact, one could argue that two up is safer than one up: when one is incapacited the second can help; one steers while the other trims the sail; docking is easier; racing does not become an entirely zero-sum game (cooperation with the crew is required, together with competition with the others - which is a better training to life itself), etc.

(A digression: to what extent the fact that the only startup boat available (the Optimist) is singlehanded could be responsible for turning sailing competitions more agressive, non-cooperative and feeding grownup classes with athletes that see everything as a zero-sum game? I guess it deserves a specific discussion topic.)

Anyway, I think it can be a great startup boat for a couple. Maybe it will require slightly different teaching techniques, but there's no reason to limit its use to kids over 12.

Another bonus is that sold as a two up under 12 startup cat, its price, maintenance, rigging time and other parent enslaving work must be compared to that of two Optimists. It makes this cat clearly a better buy than two Optimists, be it for two siblings, for a couple of friends, mother and son, mother and daugther, cousins, sailing schools, etc. And we know what the kids will prefer...

Lastly, after the kids are hooked, this cat will remain a great boat for them at least two years longer than the Optimist. For some girls it will last for their lifetime.

It's a great boat and a great concept!

There is definatly a place for entry level monos like the opti. Kids need a very forgivable boat to learn on when they are 6-10 years old and have never tried to harness the wind.

Then.... the next logical step?

This made me chuckle. The point you're trying to make is perfectly fair, but I'm just imagining explaining to an anxious parent that yes of course your child may become incapacitated while sailing this boat but that's really quite ok because they'll have someone else there to get them back to shore. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Probably poor choice of words, the way that I read it was "busy" doing something else.

I know, I'm sure you're right - I was just amused by the image it brought to my mind. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WOW! Phil those are beautiful! Dave, If your son can sail the H 14, he will think these babies have power steering! Hope someone starts building them! Nice work Phil! Mike, Just because we have plans to have Hunter skip the monos, don't think we'll let any harm come to him!