The mini-Blade looks very nice but IMHO is very similar to the Hobie Advance. (reinventing the wheel??)

Just a practical thought, I noticed that the Blade mast doesn't have shrouds but what happens when you tip it over on the beach? How strong is the mast?

http://www.sailinginspain.net/eng/item/MN010.html

I can see the resemblance, except for the jib, spinnaker, shrouds, curved crossbar, and trapezes. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Storage space is always an issue at the clubs I've been a member of, more so when it comes to cats. One club I was at wouldn't let us store our JY-15's on beach wheels, because 6 of them took up "too much of the beach". They wanted everything to stack up, like Lasers and Opti's or out on a mooring. I see this quick rig mast as a good idea, like a Laser, you can pull it out quickly and then have some racks built to store the boats stacked up, if you are going to have those issues at a club.

I wonder if a suitable windsurfer rig can be found to slip into the mast base tube? Seems you could offer a varitey of sail sizes, sort of like the Laser 4.7, Radial, full size, etc. Of course you are not going to be able to trap off that type of rig vs. a standard mast setup.

Also, if a -build it yourself- kit could be offered like the kayak kits, where every peice is pre-cut, bulkheads, resin, cloth, all that stuff included, you might sell quite a few to those who like to build. Then all they would have to do is buy the windsurfer mast/sail combo and be on their way. Boomless, and no traveler like the Wave today, would make it cheaper and easier for kids to learn.

Most of the kayak kit's I've seen sell for between $700-1,000 but that's for 16-18 feet, single hull. I'm thinking you could build two 12 foot hulls for not too much more than that, maybe double that price, ($2,000?) except you would also have to buy a tramp and cross bars, build some rudders and daggers if you are going to use daggers instead of skegs.

And the weight, the advance weights in at 115 kg (255 lbs) ! I'm not sure about the Blade 12, but the F12's we are working on come in at just over 60 kg (135 lbs).

Basically the Advance suffers from the same drawbacks as the Dragoon. It is a very heavy scaled down F18 with all rigging effort being largely the same. It also cost 5000 euro's.

The F12's we are looking at come in at 3000 Euro's or less. I suspect the Blade 12 is in the same region.

For more info :

http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/F12/F12_weight_and_cost_push_rod_setup.xls

And of course the general website :

http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/F12/

Wouter

Nothing. The sheet and sail force loads are much higher while sailing then any loads that tipping the boat over on the beach can put on the mast. So if the mast is designed to hold up under sailing then it will do so as well when tipped over.

Phill has not specified what kind of mast he will be using exactly (none of us know any specs of that Blade 12 as a matter of fact) but the F12's that use a similar unstayed mast have taken the design of class 5 landyachting. These landyachts sometimes tip over at speed (think 30-60 mph) with the crew remaining in the seat and the mast survives without any issues. I did this two weeks ago in my own class 5 landyacht and I was almost at full speed (50 mph). These masts are pretty strong and dependable.

Tipping over landyachts over on the beach when we go for a break or a drink is standard operating procedure. Tony, if you ever want to do some landyachting just contact me and I'll take you along sometime.

Wouter

Tim,

Info about costs can be found in the excel sheet I linked to earlier.

With respect to your other points.

About halve a year ago it was discussed how the F12's could be stacked on top of eachother on this public forum, mostly because the masts come of so easily. A portion of the group is working on deep V-ed hulls that will allow a metal strip to be fitted to the keel. These boats be dragged over almost any surface (boat ramp ?) and can be stacked on top of eachother without any need for a rack. Transport will be much the same. The necessity to store these boats stacked was identified early on (last year) as an another beneficial quality the F12's should have. The deep V-ed hullshape also makes the keel line strong and robust under abuse.

Windsurfer masts.
I'm actually the one with Grob who has been experimenting with windsurfer masts in this role. My first impression is that this route has a few issues that are not easy to solve. The Blade 12 will suffer more in this respect as its pod design is less suited to keeping an unstayed windsurfer rig upright. The push rod setup as shown in the pics of the alternative F12's is better suited to taking a windsurfer mast but the issue of these masts being to flexible (pumping) is not totally negated by it. A seperate metal tube reaching higher up the mast externally (as Grob uses succesfully) is needed, however if you are going to use a bottom alu section to support the windsurfer mast anyway, why not go for a full metal tube mast. The top sections are not the problem, neither in weight or cost.

Also I don't think the F12's need many different sailsizes. One of the bettter aspecst of a catamaran is that these carry large sailarea's rather well without losing control even in big wind. I think we can do well with only 1 sail size or at max 2.

Apart from the hulls, the sail and rudders all other parts are very easily home-made by an amateur. The alu tubing mast costs 260 euro's commercially (it is basically a class 5 landyachting mast) and for that price I wouldn't go through the trouble of making one myself. The rudders can be scavaged of any other catamaran design like an old hobie or prindle. These being oversized is actually an advantage. Otherwise a new set of Dotan rudders will do fine. The sail can be homemade or sources from a local supplier. It is my intent to publize a decent sail design free of charge so everybody can build it himself or have a local sailmaker make it for him. Even when these three items are bought new commercially then the total costs aren't expect to pass 3000 Euro's overall. (see the excel sheet).

I feel that Blade 12 by Phill will be very much along the same lines as the F12's in this respect.

Wouter

Another problem with the windsurfing rig is that they take to long to rig in my opinion, so I am keen to see the details of the other solutions. That said most holiday resorts leave them rigged up throughout the season so if your club has space then that would make them the quickest rigging option.

Gareth

Wouter, I thought it was for kids. What you are talking about sounds like a full on racing scalled down F16. I doubt if I will get off my F16 to race an F12. But I would throw my kids out on one and chase them around on my boat. I'm not interested in owning yet another class of racing boat, I have enough trouble getting to a few F16 regattas, but I would be interested in a kid's boat that doesn't cost what a new Wave costs, over $5,000 US, when a used H16 is $1,000. I've already got a windsurfer mast/sail sitting in my garage, unused, so I could save quite a bit there, if I could find a way to rig it to the Blade 12.

And Grob, could you please explain that Avatar picture you have on that cat? Looks like two windsurfer rigs to me, how do you keep them upright? Thanks.

Would you add permanent beach wheels that double as fenders, bumpers and back rests when lifted from the water? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
It's just brainstorming, but I'd like to know your opinion.

I'm not a big fan of homebuilding (no quality control, build consistency, standardization, parts, etc), and if only 1 of them sinks it will be very bad for the reputation of cats.

Personally I wouldn't even have the space to build one, remember that (unfortunately) houses in Europa are considerably smaller than in the US or AUS.

Maybe it would be better to let a commercial builder build a batch of a few dozen at a time to keep prices down?

Good point. As far as I know, homebuilt Optimists have always been class legal and it has never been a problem.

The likely reason is that, like the F12 and Blade 12, good engineering and simple but detailed construction instructions are complemented by mandatory watertight compartments and/or fixed flotation aids.

Sinking is not an option, so a boat that can sink is not class legal.

Thanks for questioning. It is the best way to test if all the details are properly covered. Keep it coming.

What ever gave you that idea ?

I think this has been covered plenty of times even with you personally and otherwise the public statement has been on the F12 website ever since Januari 2007.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/F12/

And I though fish has a short memory span. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Phill Blade 12 is intended for young kids, which I think refers to as 7-10 year olds. My F12 is intended for solo sailing (that includes small short course racing as well) for 12+ year olds. Doublehanded if they start younger. On the other side of the spectrum are adult women and very light adult males.

It is not a scaled down F16 as it only has a single unstayed mainsail, no daggerboards or even a mainsheet tackle system like the F16's.

With respect to fitting a windsurfer rig to the F12 or Blade 12 this is how you do it :




Basically you keep the bottom section of the alu mast tubing and fit the front of the windsurfer boom to its top. The windsurfer mast foot is then fitted to a plate that is bolted or welded to the backside of the mainbeam. But I caution you, most windsurfer rigs are very flexible and will pump in unstable wind on a craft like a landyacht or F12. I've found this out by test sailing several mast on this vehical :



The mast show actually has a timbed rod with 40 mm diameter tucked up its inside for the first 2 meter to get the lower portion stiff enough to give is a nice behaviour in gusts. Another mast I test had a 2 mm thick wall aluminium tube hammered into the bottom but pumped like crazy still.

Also take a look at Grobs craft to see the same setup used on a sailboat.


Wouter

How about buying the hulls as you would with other gear and finish the craft off yourself ?

These small 12 footers are alot smaller and easier to work on then a F18 or something.

I live in a high rise building and I've been working on my 6 landyachts requlary using the parking lot in front of the building. You'll be surprised how easy it is. The only major undertaking are building the hulls, the rest is pretty simple and can be done everywhere.

I have restitched my F16 jib two times already in my living room (one time by hand even) and my living room is small. A F12 mainsail will not require that much more space or be more difficult.

It is not envisioned that homebuilding will produce most of the boats, it is just an important way of starting the class after which (hopefully) a small commercial builder can be interested when the concept has been proven.

Wouter

Unsinkable.

I hope I don't bore anybody with my comments but this is the unsinkable setup that I was considering.

A bag is made from fine mazed netting (screen door netting) that sits more or less in the hull between the two bulkheads supporting the beams. This netting is filled with small balls of foam packing material that the industry uses. I think we all know this stuff. The netting is there to prevent the balls from escaping through any large crack in the hulls.

As this foam is in small ball format it can always be taken out through the inspect port and be replace by new balls when it ages or has soaked up to much water of time.

This granulate can even be made yourself by breaking up styrofoam. Typically common variaty styrofoam weights 10kg/cubic meter. I checked that a while ago. This means that even if the complete hull is filled (about 300 liter) that the stuff will only weight 3kg in total. Of course 150 kg floatation will be quite enough (1.5 kg per hull).

Wouter

I like that idea. Having the hulls already completed will open up the class to kit builders that would not tackle composite construction.

And lets not overlook the fact that a 12 foot hull (basically 0.35x0.45x3.75 mtr by 17.5 kg) is very easy and cheap to transport, both nationally and internationally. Especially with a mast that collapses to less then 3.75 mtr length as show in this thread :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showthre...ge=0#Post124554

A home-"assembler" can order 2 hulls (symmetrical) and the mast SECTIONS from a small commercial builder and finish the boat/mast off himself, sourcing the other stuff where he can. In my design the beams are made of the same section as the lower mast section so these can be send with the package as well, preferably with predrilled holes for the bolts. Most building stuff is then sawing, drilling and fitting parts together.

Buying and fitting stuff like the rudder pintles should be withing reach of most persons. Homemaking things like the trampoline is also easily done. Painting the craft, etc.

So this could indeed by a viable option if a small commercial builder is found somewhere. We will have to take care to have the hulls easily and quickly produced to make it economically attractive for such a small builder.

Wouter

Have you looked to the kit car industry to see which makers have been successful and why? I believe Factory Five Racing has built a very successful paradigm in the Cobra kit car market. The kit is intended to use the drivetrain from a donor vehicle (Mustang) which dramatically increased the range of potential builders by simplifying the build process. So your comments on using existing rudder assemblies and such are right on. Actually be able to tell the builders what ones work and how to attach them. Obviously the Hobie line is an excellent source.

I would even suggest contacting FFR and picking there brains on their ideas on what worked and what didn't. Including marketing- which probably be the biggest hurdle.

http://www.factoryfive.com/rdsterhome.html

I'd be happy just to cut the old Hobie 14 hulls off my kid's boat and use everything on a new set of F12 hulls, mast, sail, rudders, tramp, etc. Think of the money you could save by purchasing a beat up 14 (the hulls are usually the thing that's beat) for $300 and using all the good stuff on new hulls. Of course you would need wires to hold the mast up but that should be easy enough to install.

Wouldn't work on my F12. The problem is not adding the "wires" (stays) but the loading they put on the boat as a whole. The bows will need to be reinforced to take the forestay loadings, side stay hardpoints will need to be added, the mainbeam will need to be reinforced to handle the massive mast step load. Boom will far to large so the mainsheet that attaches to the middle of the boom now will need to be increased putting higher loads on the "traveller setup" I have in mind, which probably can't take it. And then you don't want a 11 sq. mtr. mainsail on a 12 foot platform anyway. The F12 is more or less optimal with 7.00 to 8.00 sq.mtr and added 60%-40% sailarea will not make the craft "more controllable".

I think you can use the rudders, tiller and tiller extension of the H14, maybe even cut down the trampoline and use some blocks and other fittings and that is about it.

Forget about the Hobie beams, more trouble then they are worth, bloody curved things with heaps of special fittings. Just buy two straight alu tubes for 150 bucks and get it done right.

Wouter

Wait an minute here, something doesn't add up.
You're saying that it is going to be easier to 'homebuild' one of these for youth sailing than to just learn how to rig a Hobie Wave, Dragoon, whatever? The dad that can't fix his garage door is going to assemble a boat?

International transport will be much easier, but nationally? How does it get easier than throwing it on a trailer.

Here in the US, there are thousands of Hobie 14's just rotting in peoples back 40. You can find them all day for $500- $1000, and sometimes you can get them for free. Why aren't those boats on the water with youth on them? The real problem as I said before is not boat design, it's the support system around the boat.

I love the design, don't get me wrong. To be successful though, it will need a some serious support on the back end.