Does that hurt the ozone layer?...sorry <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> carry on

Actually I think that is precisely part of what Wouter and others have been saying for a long time. I think you may have difficulty building a support system around a bunch of disused 10+ y.o. boats.

And the comparison between the complexity of building a boat and the complexity of rigging a boat misses the issue by a wide margin. The problem is not that people are not capable of rigging a complex boat. The problem is that these people have kids who aren't excited about standing around while someone rigs a boat for them, nor about doing it themselves.

Naw, Hobies were made with recycled bottles and hemp plant stocks back in the early '70's. As you saw, I didn't cover it in my global warming rant. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Let's see...we got boat design covered, the racing scene covered, global warming covered, the Olympics, a little politic speak, what's missing?

What do you think about starting a thread on religion here too.
Now that would be some winter time fun! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

We don't want to blow our whole arsenal so early into the winter though.

No more hijacking. This thread is about a cool boat for the youth.

Mark,
I don't know about Wouter, but that is a part of what got meworking on this concept.
Also those old 14ft cats cater for older kids. There is nothing that fits just right for the younger ones.
Light, simple, easy to rig and look fast sitting on the beach. This is what is needed.

Regards,
Phill

Got it. You're probably right on for the younger than say 12 market. This forum is great market research for your project!

Doesn't that Hobie Bravo have some kind of a freestanding rig, like Wouter's land yachts? Has anyone even seen one up close or ever sailed a Hobie Bravo? Granted it doesn't look nearly as cool as Phil's Blade 12.

Post deleted by Wouter

That is what I'm aiming at because if we don't get them by 12 some other sport will already have them.
And if they get into the sport once they hit twelve they can start rigging their own boats.
So if the parents/instructors have to rig a bunch of boats it has to be quick and easy.

Regards,
Phill

What about the older than 12 market? I realize that you're trying to get youth involved but how would this boat hold up to a 160lb adult skipper? Reason I ask is I've wanted to build a boat for a while. The projected price is very inviting as well. Besides, pitchpole-ing on a hot summer day is kinda fun.

Yep, plenty of room for disagreement here. We can and should speculate on what will be successful in the market, but answers to this kind of question aren't always cut and dried. Ultimately people just have to build what they think is going to be successful and test it out in the real world. Good luck to all of you!

Phil:

Right on we need something that will make there eyes pop out. something that is just like the current big boy boats. Something that could also generate an A cat champ. Keep up the good work. You are right on.

Doug

There appears to be two projects for 12 footers :


The Blade 12 (Phill, strict OD ? )

For kids : probably under 12 years of age. Sail area smaller then the laser dinghy (same with respect to F12). Not much else is know with regard to specs.



The F12 (multi manufacturer relative open OD class or true formula ; Wouter and others)

For youths and light adults : over 12 years of age ; optimal racing for 40-65 kg crews (90 lbs -145 lbs) = 12-16 year olds and adult women, but should take adults up to 80 kg (175 lbs) well in a recreational sense. Beyond those weights the sail area will be a bit small and it will be doubtful whether you'll fly the hull often; boat will however float well till crew weight up to 250 kg. Sail area is the same as the Laser dinghy : 7.00 sq. mtr. on a 6.000 mtr tall mast. performance with adult will be about the same as the Hobie Wave and it'll be about 15 % faster then the Laser dinghy with same crew. Performance with youth (12-16 years) on it will be close to the standard Hobie 14. Lifting of hull while hiking by 55 kg skipper will be about the same as a 150 kg crew on a F18. This data applies to a F12 that has the following dimensions : 3.75 x 2.00 mtr by 65 kg with 7.00 sq. mtr. sail on 5.30 mtr luff on 6.000 mtr mast (aspect ratio of 4 = tad lower then F18). It appears that Retired Geek, Scarecrow and Wouter are all working on F12's with these general dimensions.


Both projects had the same origins in 2003 but Phill and I eventually disagreed on several aspects, of which this is one and so a split happened. It sounds like the F12 is more up your ally. But I wouldn't be surprised if Phill comes out with a Blade F12 later on that is upgraded for 12+ usage. The chances needed are not too big afterall.

Wouter

Sailing Anarchy

This is what we need to be shooting for in the states for cats! A PROGRAM

We have been told... we need a development program for cat racers.

Well.... the monohulls were told... you need a development program for skiff racers.

AYC is stepping up to the plate. They plan to put their racers into the 29ners.

So... IMO this is Good News! ... We are not that far behind.... fact of the matter is that there is NO 29ner racing in the mid atlantic jr or senior.... Fact of the matter... there is NO 49ner or skiff racing either... but we have LOTS of multihull racing. More importantly, there actually is a junior racing program already on the east coast... (Pat B has spoken about how succesful it is Syracuse area). Bottom line, the race for the hearts and minds starts now...

Lets be clear its not Phil v the rest of the world. My efforts on this project are directed firmly on the under 12 and always have been as I agree with Phil as this is the market that needs addressing.

Gareth

YES!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I refered to the two active projects at this time. I didn't know you have an active project, Gareth.

Wouter

Why do you think I have dropped out? I have everything except the hulls and hope to have them by the end of Feb.

Which two projects do you count as active? I know of Phil and RG, whats happened to yours?

Gareth

It's a beautiful boat Phil.

I think the mast step system and the way it distributes the load is a good. The loads on the base of an unstayed mast on a cat are pretty big. I will send you a PM.

There is talk of a youth program at GYC in the coming year. When will plans be ready?

Grob,

Well, the last I heared about your own project was this spring I believe. I'd assumed the project had stalled a nothing new was presented to the world since then. Even back then the project wasn't very far advanced, I can only remember 2 CAD drawings of it, no specs or detailed components.




Unbelievable, don't you guys read anything ?

I'm currently the only one to have produced a design will full detailed listing of the weights and costs of each component. The specs of my design have been fixed and I'm currently the only one with a fully worked out mast design. I'm also the only one who has tested several components for the F12 in real life. Granted, most of it was on a landyacht but mast loadings are mast loadings whether the mast is stepped on a sail boat or landyacht. Add to that things like detailed performance comparisons to the Laser dinghy and I think I got a pretty decent lead on all of the others.

I'm very thankful for your contributions to the F12 project, but you of all people should know what happened to my design, it continued when all others discontinued it. I got the private e-mails to you to proof it.

Wouter