refer to the first line in prevoius post.

Exactly. We're not just sailors, we're cat sailors. We define ourselves by the boats we sail.

You want cheap and easy to setup, sail a sunfish.

You want big fleets, sail an El Toro or whatever dingy is popular in your area.

You want comfort, sail a daysailer.

So, why is it that we were drawn to cats in the first place?

And, will ignoring that reason draw more people to cat sailing?

Rhino wrote :




Pat wrote :




I will try to keep this short.

I think, Pat makes some very good points in his last two statements.

I personally feel however that a good advertising can be maximized by the specifics of the boat. These two things are not unrelated. For example, it is alot easier to advertise a light fast boat succesfully then a slow heavy boat. That fact that in history many counterexamples are to be found it because persons associated with superior products often allow themselves to become complacent. This while the persons associated with the inferior product are well aware that they need to the message right the first time around and stay focussed; not missing a single opportunity.

The real trick is to get a good design and then make sure that the marketing is spot on and that everybody stays focussed.


Having said this I do feel that the first statement by Pat can not be succesfully defended. Afterall their are many more F18's around then Prindle 18's these days. This while fleets of P18's could contain 100's in the 80's and 90's.


The real principle is that a chosen design should sufficiently light and performant, the rest is then succesful marketing. Again, the design and marketing should work together and give eachother a good starting point.

That was the reason (among other things) that started the F12's and against the Bravo.

Now F12 has run into some trouble lately and the Bravo is claimed to sell well in USA but I haven't seen it pop up on the radar screen yet. So we'll just have to wait a little longer and see what happens.

But I admit that proper marketing and "people oriented" class building is what is often neglected, overlooked or simply regarded unimportant. Personally I'm not impressed by Hobie marketing with respect to their new models. Basically they are all failing as far as Europe is concerned. The only two doing well are H16 and Tiger, but the rest of their EU product list of 17 boats is doing surprisingly unimpressive. Maybe they sell lots of them, but we are simply not seeing them on the water.

Wouter

I believe your experience would be very usefull (and wellcome) in the F12 group. The features you mentioned are part of those of the entry level cat that 4 desigers and many other volunteers are trying to optimize. Other targets are speed, low price, safety, marketability, availability as a serial, kit or homebuilt product, and international class, among others.

Please pay a visit!

One word that I don't believe has been mentioned regarding marketing is "visibility". There's been heaps of talk about TV coverage at Olympics etc, but the principle behind this is "visibility".

It is difficult for sailing to be highly visible. Skate boarding and BMX is easy, kids rock up to school on them blah blah blah...we know how visible they are.

How do we make sailing more visible? Getting TV coverage is one very limited and difficult/expensive avenue.
There are simpler and cheaper alternatives that may be more effective.

I think the Volvo Extreme 40's are getting close to the mark, location, location, location! Am I correct in understanding that they had numerous regattas in the middle of big cities? Look at the locations for the air races, right next to big cities, over a river or lake with plenty of room for spectators.

The biggest hurdle is that most of the clubs we belong to set courses far from land because that's where the best wind and water is.

A few weeks ago I saw a school teams racing group training in a small bay near my local club with near perfect spectator viewing all around. It is about 450m wide and 500m long. I looked at them and thought, if this little bay was dredged a bit deeper closer to shore, we could get 2-3 short courses laid for teams and match racing at all tides. It would also be perfect for learn to sail courses because mum and dad can sit on the bank and watch. There's parking, public parks with seating, popular walking paths, everything you need for real-life visibility.

Instead, the club runs the teams racing and learn to sail 500-600m from shore straight off the club where there is no access for the public to watch. And the general club fleet racing is set even further offshore between 2000 and 4000m!

So, how else do we improve the visibility? Location is one way. Maybe steal another aspect of skating and riding, flashy artwork on the hulls. I'm sure there are plenty of struggling artists out there that would love a crack at it. Hobie sort of did it with their multi-coloured sails. Check out this... Airbrushed Drag Boats

Maybe we as sailors are too conservative with our sport, we think we're outlandish or on the cutting edge, but in reality all the technology we use has been thought of by someone else, even the wing keel concept was taken from aeronautical engineers designing planes. When it comes to our boats, we are, in general, very conservative.

This is a natural feeling, our boats are very expensive and loved and at the end of the day we like calm seas and steady wind because it is much easier and less punishing and the racing is more even.

Visibility is essential for popularity and an important project goal under "marketing", but not a relevant goal for the cat's design, in which we are working now. Being naturally small, a kid's cat can sail in places where bigger boats can't, closer to shore or in smaller bodies of water.

One of the many reasons why we are working on the F12 project is that kids on cats will necessarily be very visible, adding to the popularity and acceptance of the sport, increasing the number of sailors and all that follows.

In my opinion the F12 is the best long term initiative to cope with the problems multihull sailing has been facing lately.

Design and visibility go hand in hand. If it looks bad it is inherently not very visually appealing.

However visibility is not just about design, getting into the publics direct field of view is the key. Forcing them to take notice of what you have to offer is essential.

The next step is tricky for sailing though, keeping them interested. Sailing is difficult and takes effort. Without some incentive to stay, participants won't stay.

So how can we wrap these ideas up into a few catch phrases or slick words to remember for those trying to promoting sailing around the world.

A google of "marketing 101" revealed the following.

"
Marketing is more than sales. Marketing is the set of activities used to
1. get your potential customer's attention
2. motivate them to buy
3. get them to actually buy
4. get them to buy again (and again…)
"

This is EXACTLY what we are trying to achieve.

but we should re-word it such...

Marketing for sailing is...
1. get your potential sailor's attention
2. motivate them to sail
3. get them to actually sail
4. get them to sail again (and again…)

Exactly!

1-How do we get people's atention?
Showing up in the market when they start doing sports instead of when they are already formed as sailors, like today.

2-How do we motivate them to sail?
With the right entry level boat, that looks great, fast, cool, etc. Organizing sail classes supported by as many grownup classes/manufacturers/organizations as possible.

3-How do we get them to sail?
Making a boat that parents aprove (safe) and that they can afford to buy or make. It must be apropriate for the kids' weight, size and skills; simple, easy to rig, fun to sail, etc.

4-How do we get them to sail again and again?
Organizing races. Many races. kids are competitive and start racing each other immediately after learning the basic skills. The races must be from club/group level to world championship level.

[color:"red"]But we can not start without THE entry level cat.[/color]

Hobie has made several attempts to make "the" class for kids/teens, with no success so far. Their rationale is likely to be the same as ours, as well as most of their motivations.

What are we doing different and why we expect success when they are failing?
- We believe in a Formula and/or Strict One Design cat for kids, slightly over 12 ft, backed by a project plan and supported by all grownup classs and manufacturers, as opposed to a single manufacturer one design backed by a corporation.

- We believe that worldwide availability/distribution is necessary. Hobie and all builders will be welcome to build and sell it, as well as homebuilders and kit makers.

- We believe that the class must be a non-profit organization started by volunteers. This is necessary if we are to receive support from those who will benefit from its existence: the grownup classes, organizations and manufacturers.

As you said, a complete marketing program is essential. Maybe you could help the group organize this plan.

This is the only thing I have some reservations about. Racing is great fun if you're winning. Adults I think are more inclined to regard being beaten as motivation to continue working on their skills. Kids, I think, are a little more sensitive to feeling they're not as good as others and I fear may be more inclined to give up if they feel they're not near the front of the fleet.

I think we need to think a little more about the best way to emphasize how kids can have fun sailing even if they're not winning. Although we recognize the success of many junior mono classes in attracting young sailors, the experience in some places at least is that even though this may develop great abilities amongst the most successful, it doesn't necessarily lead to a high proportion of kids sticking with sailing long term. As much as we should try to emulate the successes of mono classes, we should be careful not to also repeat their mistakes.

Ideas are wellcome. I can think of some, but they are either competitive (sailing games with goals different from speed) or apropriate for older sailors only.

Throwing a ball around like in "Brandy" (ie you brand the other person with a tennis ball) is good because it teaches great boat handling when you have to come back around to get a ball in the water.

Do it in a box formed by 4 markers.

There are heaps of other excercises, just look on the net.

Let's be honest. Watching sailing ranks right up there with watching water evaporate. Same with golf. Plenty of fun to do, but boring as hell. How many youngsters have Tiger woods as a hero. I guess he does have his own video game.

This may well be true, but I'm not sure that it has to be true for all time. Technology may have a role to play in creating a much more compelling media experience.

Can I just state the obvious that I haven't seen talked about much yet?

The problem is that most of us Americans are just too FN lazy for cat sailing.

I'd really say sailing in general. Not to mention the cost involved in sailing. Something like tennis or soccer is cheaper on the amature level. Going pro in either probably costs a fortune.

a)Most people can't afford to buy a new boat.
b) Those who can't afford a new boat are too lazy to fix up a used boat.

The kids have great fun with brandy , we only have to hit the sails. They always race squirt each other throw buckets of water at each other, deliberately tip over. On quiet days they jump out to swim to other boats and try and capsize them.
My 12yr old had a birthday party yeaterday at the club 5 girls that had never been on a boat came and went out. Got talking to parents turns out one of them used to sail a 505 and is going to come to the club and sail with his daughter on my boat one day. Posted a pic of the birthday party.
regards

It can be boring as sin to watch, but so are a lot of sports. My god I hate car racing processions!

It is about being visible, ppl start asking questions and talking about it with friends.

Sailing participation isn't going to improve over-night. It is going to require a few years of patience and some careful planning.

The cost shouldn't be a concern, have you seen the price of some of the top road and mountain bikes!!! What should be developed are levels of cost for different items and not too much difference between them on the race course.

The laser would do very well for itself if they had upgradable components. Lighter and stiffer blades, better masts, better sails, and price all the available options accordingly. The current rigs should be dirt cheap (about half the cost they are now) and the top quality rigs should be about the cost of the existing rigs.

I'm assuming the current rigs are highly over-priced considering a lot of laser sailors save their legit sail for big races and buy their exact replica training sail at half the price from the local sailmaker.

PS. I think there are a fair few Tiger Woods fans and wannabes, he earns a lot of money!

If you look at the racing side of it, sailing at this level is really cheap. As a hobby its a bit spendy but still not that bad. I have friends who carry more in fishing poles when they go fishing than what I paid for my first H16. Not to mention the price of a new bass boat.

I think laziness hits it right on the head. There is a fair amount of work to set up, launch, sail, tear down, drive home, rinse/dry clean gear and do it again for most people.

I've been thinking about this, and in reality, my parents probably spent ~$4,000 per year for my brother to play select soccer, then four years of varsity soccer, and training camps. All this in hopes that he could get a college scholarship.

The only difference being that this money was spread out over time. The initial purchase of a boat is high, but maintenance is relatively cheap.

Even my cousin, who rides amature motorcross, spends $4-5K on a new bike every few years. Plus a bundle in parts or repairs. Boats last far longer.

I think that five things are hindering sailing, sailing in general. I beleive that these five things are also the five things that are hindering Rowing. I've recently started becoming involved with the administration of our Crew, and we've had similar discussions at our meetings.

1)Marketing
A)Don't see too many sailboat commercials on TV...more bass boat commercials.
B)There aren't too many sailing celebrities to bring kids in

2)Venues
A) Sailing is not a spectator sport. It's like rowing, you stand around all day just to see your kid shoot down the course in 7 minutes. Often times you only see a portion of that race because the shoreline blocks your view.
B)It often require a bit of a drive to the nearest venue.
C)Difficult media coverage.

3)Revenue
A)Communities and Schools aren't willing to support a sport that does not bring in revenue.

4)Cost
A)It's usually more of a middle to upper class sport.
Something like wrestling or football is cheaper for lower income families. Sending my brother to England for 3 weeks to play soccer was on the extreame side of noramal high school sports

5)Operational costs and event costs
A)Operational costs of a club are sky high.
B)Equipment maintenance for a club program is high.
C)Club programs require insurance, which happens to be expensive.
D) The big regattas cost a good bit to put on, granted we double our investment. Just to turn around and use it on equipment and facilities upkeep.

If anyone is interested, I can outline some of our solutions to these issues.

Interesting that golf, fishing and auto racing have all been mentioned as boring.
Those three boring(to some) televised events have a huge fan base and millions tune in to watch.

The visibility angle along with some education on whats going on could really help.
Maybe we have to get over our selves and find places to race that provide the best viewing from shore and not the best racing for us. The best people always win anyway.

The Bass Master event at one of our parks was held on a small lake that was split up into areas that each angler had to stay in for a set period of time. This gave the fans on shore the ability to see their favorites up close near shore.
This same small lake could be great to have a race on that we set the marks close to shore.
The course might have to be set poorly so that there is a mark were the people are and hopefully we are screamin reachin to it.
Maybe coordinate the exhibition race to be run during a larger event that lots of people will already be at.

Visibility: Very good addition to the discussion

No disrespect to the crowd working on youth designs.
If Hobie has built 37 1/2 new models for kids since the late 60's with little success, what are you really doing differant. I don't need the answer here as this has discussed at length many times.