Finally some wind and I have crew!

We went out this weekend on Sarasota Bay in 32 to 36+ mph wind. I did not reef the main because I wanted to learn how to handle the boat and having never sailed with a reefed main on any boat in the past 25 years, I did not want to ad to the "unknown" factor. While this trip out was not about perfect performance, I felt that I did learn a lot. Mostly that I need to learn a lot!

I know from my hobie experience that EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE TIGHT! Reefing was never a good racing decision in my past experience with Hobies. Our wave conditions were maybe 3 foot chop and we did stuff the bow both upwind and down wind as well as lose the rudder control to cavitation. I never felt that I was going to lose the boat. Just that I needed a little more finesse and experience and needed to push harder. I felt that with more practice and a lot less paranoia about breaking a mast, I should be able to handle those conditions reasonably well.

Having said all that, I wondered what would be the pros and cons for reefing the main? Could a Corsair 28R be sailed like a Hobie 16 in heavy air? i.e. rake the mast way back.

I would appreciate hearing from anyone with an opinion or experience on heavy air sailing.

I don't have a lot of experience but I think you would be faster with a reef in that level of wind. I know it works that way with monos at least... but would make sense for a tri too. Being overpowered loads things up too much, more drag, etc...
but like I said, not a lot of direct experience.

First - take a bucket...tie a line to it, have Paul hold on to the rope and toss the bucket overboard...of course, you want to make sure you have the spinnaker and jib hoisted and on the proper tack before you do this.

Am I sensing fear and a lack of self confidence?

I thought you would be one of the first to offer advice to a new female owner on heavy air sailing in a Corsair. You are the one that has been coached by Randy Smyth for over a year.
Oh by the way, Bob Harkrider has brought his boat to Sarasota. He and Doug Fisher have agreed to practice with me this weekend. I am hoping for heavy air again. You busy?

Sorry, North for the holidays. What ever happened to coming to Destin to practice?

Lacking self confidence...I always believe I sail against better sailors than me. Fear...hmm...call it respect...I've seen you on the starting line in heavy air.

Hell Kathryn, you've kicked our butt so much it's just self awareness...the days of saying you don't know how to sail the boat are long gone.

All I've learned to do in heavy air is stay on the boat and drive - you'll have to talk to the crew about sail trim. They are good at it, that's for sure. Heavy air is lots of cunningham, extraordinarily tight mainsheet, and weight astern. And smiles...lots of smiles.

Life is what happened. Crew, work, Homeland Security, which by the way finally contacted us last night!

Regarding heavy air sailing... we got the weight distribution, cunningham, and smiles...lots of smiles! We were all doing an excellent job with that!
I had a new crew on board who had claimed to be a die hard monohull sailor. He is now a convert and looking for a Corsair to be steady crew on. Yes!!!!

I think that you are probably right about the reef. The last time I sailed with a reefed main was the early 80's on a Hobie 16. It was slow and the Hobie 16 sailors since learned to rake the mast back to depower. I just wondered if any Corsair sailors had tried to apply the same principles. On further thought it would probably take a forestay extension and a recut of the jib to accommodate such serious mast rake.
Cliff, maybe the next time you see Randy you could ask him if he has any words of wisdom on this?

Why would a reef cause more mast rake?

We've talked about it and I think the answer is "it depends". The Houston NOODs last year (2006) Craig and Scott crewed on Kevin Grice's boat. 50/50 beat everyone in heavy air without a reef (everyone else reportedly reefed). Craig said they were about equal upwind, but downwind they just killed everyone. I've never raced reefed, but I'm willing to try it to see.

I think you've gotten some fantastic and detailed advice on heavy air on the F-boats mailing list. You should post it here for all to see as well.

I'm interested in whether or not the precourt shrouds will let you adjust rake beyond what we can currently do with the turnbuckles now, although we've found that you can actually have problems with the mast rotation if you rake it too far.

Cliff,
You should be able to rake more than you can imagine with the precourt system (aside from the obvious issues with forestay, jib, rotator, halyard blocks, etc). You just need to make sure the shroud itself is 1-2 feet shorter than the actual wire stay. My boat has them and the lashings at the amas have about 1 ft or more of distance between the amas and the bottom of the eye (and these are at the length they would be if the mast were up). The lashing just needs to be longer when the mast is more upright. I think that is the great thing about the precourt system. The previous owner of my boat always used the precourt system and although the abrasion issue makes me nervous to think about it, 3/8 dynex has a breaking strength of something like 24,000 pounds so even with a lot of abrasion they should still be fine (not that I would let it get to a serious level of abrasion, but you get my point).

p.s. I always have to remind myself that the mainsheet has to be really tight in high winds. A guy I sail with on a cat is mr "sheet the hell out of it- it ain't tight enough until you hear something cracking." It just seems counterintuitive to start with until I think about it more.

I think you misunderstood me. You don't reef a Hobie 16. You rake the mast back instead of a reef. The side shrouds are not adjusted, just the forestay. The whole rig is then looser falling off to leeward. You still sheet the main really, really hard; downhaul, really, really hard; and use the traveller in the puffs. The jib is travelled all the way out. It works unbelieveably well in making the boat quite controllable and is fast!

The forestay on my 28R has about a 1/4" or less adjustment left to rake back, which isn't worth bothering with in my opinion. I would need to change the forestay or add a section. Last year, I checked my mast rake against Dealers Choice and I was in the ball park with his. Todd had said initially he had the mast raked farther back but now he keeps the rig more forward.

I think that what I am learning is that the downwind in heavy air is the concern. Sea conditions are a huge factor in determining how easy it might be to stuff the bows and with a full main, that may be all it takes to push you over.

I raced the Canadian Nationals in Nova Scotia several years ago on my Hobie 17 in over 50. It was the last race of the event and I was fighting for 2nd place so I was pushing very hard. I sailed the downwind with my traveller centered and the main sheeted hard. I sailed the upwind with the traveller all the way out and the main sheeted hard. The difficult part was the transition between upwind and downwind. I managed to gain well over a leg lead on the fleet, including Paul (who had already won and was sailing his throw out), with this technique. The kiss of death is relaxing and allowing any slack in the main. This technique may also work on a Corsair, but there is absolutely no safety margin with it.

Also Cliff, sorry about asking questions that led you to assume I didn't know what I was doing. I don't know the idiosyncrasies of the 28R or where the edge is. And I can't help but wonder if there aren't better techniqes than the ones I currently use. So I ask, and I truly appreciate the feedback that I get. Besides... how else can I live up to the graphics on the side of my boat. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Smyth reefs, I've seen it. He reefed his 25c in 20+kt in the 2000 Nationals. Hell, we were all reefing.

Steppin' and fetchin' to keep the overpowered boat under control isn't fast... think about it. You're too busy "losing rudder control" and "stuffing the bow" and not actually sailing.

You don't have to believe me: read Gavin leSueur's MULTIHULL SEAMANSHIP. And reef for the gusts.

I think the tight main downwind is right, (much tighter than I'd ever do on a keelboat) but not so that it's stalled.

The 28R seems to be a pretty forgiving boat - the worst stuff we've done was fixed by a major ease of the chute. Not a foot or two, more like 7 or 8 feet. Have your chute trimmer hold about 5 or 6 feet of slack between the trimming hand and the "lazy" hand. If the bow stuffs, then blow the chute to get the boat back on it's feet. Also I'd plan on driving a little deeper than normal in really heavy stuff to both max VMG and lessen the influence of the main wrt pushing the bows down. Finally - crew weight as far back as you can...both helm and stern.

If you ease the main when your bow stuffs (assuming it's tight to begin with), you're just going to power it up and push your bow further down until it's truly to the point of dumping air. I don't know about you, but our mainsheet tends to get fouled up when we try to let it run quickly.

It's edgy stuff, but I can't remember the last time I heard about someone flipping a 28R in wind/leeward conditions (hope I didn't just jinx us all).

Is there a fleet of F28's regularly racing in Sarasota?

I wish! Is there a fleet of anything regulary raced in Florida? Ouch! That sounded bitter didn't it. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Currently there are three 28R's in Sarasota, 1 in Bradenton and 1 in St. Petersburg. Sarasota has a lot of opportunity for PHRF racing weekly. PHRF is absolutely not my cup of tea, however, It's an opportunity to practice and I seem to be the only one that is consistently there racing! Of the boats at the sailing squadron, I suppose I would be considered obsessed. The next boat is sailed when it is convenient and crew happens to be around. The third is only here for the winter months and... well..., they enjoy their boat. The fellow in Bradenton is desperately looking for competent crew that can help him learn to sail the boat and compete in the Bradenton Yacht Club events. The fellow in St Petersburg is an awsome sailor, but life seems to keep getting in his way and we have only seen him once since last year's Key West Race Week.
The dealer has sent several local perspective buyers to come out on my boat with me, so hopefully the fleet will grow soon. Sarasota also has 1 Sprint 750 2-F24, and a 28C. There are also a couple of other 24's floating around on the bay but they don't sail from Sarasota Sailing Squadron.

Okay, time for me to put my to pesos in. I agree with rake back, works on a lot of other types of boats so why not a fully battened main. Unfortunately the 28Rs are limited to rake with the current rigging set up (wire/turnbuckle) but that could change when ever the class goes modern and goes precourt. No precout debates as the biggest advantage to going precourt in a class is rigging and derigging the boat, not the weight savings as a class if everyone shaves the same weight. The biggest concern is crew safety. As the rig goes back so does that boom. When I wore a kayak/wakeboard helmet at KWRW it was to protect my noggin after we adjusted to more rake aft. It is obvious to me that the rest of you clowns don't believe that I had anything in my noggin to protect, but.... Anyhow, with further rake, the boom comes back down lower into the ****. The protection time is prestart when the crew is in that position and the boom is going back and forth quite a bit. The second issue is at the top mark, when the main comes flying down in that breeze. That and heavy weahter tacks when the main is realesed early. Something to think about. But don't go with a bicycle helmet as that is designed for a single hit and throw away, go with the kayak/wakeboard helmets. IOther than that, sheet in like hell, pray Cliff isn't on Port Tack and hang on! Weeeee HAAAA
http://st09.startlogic.com/~pendrago/graphics/everytime.bmp

Very true. I noticed in some pictures that Cliff had sent to me, Strategery's boom sits substantially lower than the rest of us with Ullman Sails. The mast rake didn't appear to be much different as best I could tell from the pictures. I assume this to be a difference in the cut of the sail. I often wished I had full body armor when sailing in strong wind and I need to cross behind the main sheet as the boom is whipping towards me from the other side of the boat!

Is this the reason why Randy usually sails boomless on his F25C?

Tap-Tap, Hello, is this thing on?? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

This isn't another test is it?

No, no, Please NO!

I was just wondering what happened to all the F boat sailors.

Hey Timbo,

Sorry I was away for the holidays and thought someone would have commented re: Randy.

Isn't the battened foot main a standard on the 25C? Someone else will have to comment. I always thought it was cool, since I've been whacked in the head by the boom so many times as a sailor - probably still stings a bit though.

Here's my question, if there is no boom, what do you do with the foot of the sail when you reef? Do you have to have holes in the sail at the reef points to pass ties through? Roll it up and tie it? I like the rolling booms when it comes to sail storage, but I don't like getting hit with them!

Hi Tim

a. I don't think anyone but Randy is messing with boomless rigs. He designed the one he carries on his 25C and the one I carry on the F27GS (Granger/Smyth)

b. Only Smyth can answer for sure, but I believe Smyth's boomless rig has more to do with safety than with anything else. I know from speaking to Tommy Granger that he was concerned with flying boom because Tommy took his whole family along sailing, and so does Smyth.

c. It takes some thought. Both Smyth's 25C and my boat have Marstrom carbon masts which are custom for both boats. My traveller has been redesigned to account for the boomless main.

d. yes, one reefs as you describe. There's some rigging lines for the clew and tack, pull the sail down, then bunch (if it's messy and hurried) or roll up the foot (yeah, right) and tie it to itself to reef. (That's a nutshell description.) When Smyth recently built me a set of sails, I asked for two reef points, although Tommy G. had only ever had one, and he said he never used even that. (I figure it's better to have it and not need it.)

For shorthanded heavy weather cruising, I have reefed and was well pleased with the result: couple of years ago husband and i were dinking in the Keys in the winter... we caught a bit of a blow, and we reefed sailing to weather and still averaged 10kt between Islamorada and Largo, along the Gulf side thru the mangroves. Comfortably, kick-back relaxed speed. (well, I was impressed, even if nobody else is.)

Thanks Tami, so you have a carbon mast on a F27? I assume it rotates as well, how much speed does that add compared to a stock non-rotating, metal mast?

And about what does a Marstrom mast for a F27 cost these days (if you know). I'm guessing quite a bit since an Inter 20 mast is up to about $5,000 I hear. I guess the price for a F28C mast would be about the same, anyone know how much that is?

According to the CTOA ratings:
http://www.corsair.web.aplus.net/6PHRFindex.htm

if I'm reading this correctly, the rotating mast costs 6 sec/mile. If you look at the numbers there at the website, you'll get a feel for what different mods should do to rating, ergo speed.


Cost of the stick...I would imagine, should I have the extremely bad luck to break the damn thing, (-knock-knock-bang-bang-on-wood, eew I hope I didn't jinx m'self) it would be in the minimum $20K range to replace the mast. (G.Zeus, I don't even wanna think about it.)

You should know that rigging time and hassle are greatly increased for me. We don't take Miz B out nearly as often as we would if she were stock, I expect. See attached pic of our gin pole. Husband is 6'1"

My boat is weird (very weird.), F27F (Formula) owners can give you a better idea of what you'll encounter

Thanks Tami. So you keep it on the trailer, mast down, most of the time?

-sniff- yes...

With the Precourt shrouds, it's not convenient or safe to raise the stick without her being unfolded.

With the AwlGrip paint job, I don't leave her in the water. But the launch is at the end of my street.

I look at it this way...

here in OS, are some houses designed by a fella by the name of Ishee ("ishee houses"). They are beautiful but problematic with leaking roofs and odd interior appointments, stuff like that. An owner was complaining about his Ishee house, and the other person said, "That's what you get for leaving a work of art out in the rain."

tami,
what do you think is unsafe about raising the mast with precourt shrouds?
I have been thinking about that question because my boat has the precourt shrouds and they are at a length right now where the previous owner had them for raising the mast with it unfolded. I would just need to loosen them a couple (?) inches to raise the mast with the amas folded then retighten them once they are unfolded. I suppose the concern is when I am unlashing the lines to retighten them. That has got me a little worried.
It seems most people like to raise the mast when on the water with the beams unfolded but for some reason I feel like I should do it on the trailer the first time (haven't done it yet, and I know it is supposed to be easy, but I am not looking forward to raising it the first time).
BTW.. what diameter line are you using for your synth shrouds?

As far as I'm concerned, it's unsafe to raise the mast on the trailer. Suzy Granger was hurt VERY badly in a fall whilst raising the mast on the trailer. It wouldn't be so bad if the boat is left folded in the water, I suppose. But then I have no cabin-top hardware for the babystay/temporary shrouds, although I could rig something up.

My Precourt shrouds are set up for the raised-mast position. They don't tighten that quickly, you're going to find it a real PITA to adjust every time you rig. That is to say, I would be quite sure that any time you've saved by not having to raise your mast is gonna be eaten up with messing with the shroud adjustment.

We drop the boat in the water, unfold at the dock, motor out a bit into the embayment, anchor, and finish rigging.

The shroud diametre?
http://www.precourt.ca/shopcart/default.php?cPath=25_33&language=en

Ask Erik Precourt for specs - your boat is larger than mine and I wouldn't venture to suggest anything. Besides I have found les Precourt to be helpful, supportive and very nice folks who produce excellent products.

Tami,
thanks. My shrouds are relatively new and don't show any signs of wear so I am mainly curious. They are 3/8 dynex which has a breaking strength of 24000lbs... which seems excessive but I guess better safe than sorry!
I see what you are saying about falling off the boat when it is on the trailer... long way to go. I think I will probably do the raising on the water, just need make sure I understand the rigging for it.

Kathryn,

Speaking from decades of Hobie racing (against YOU) and a few years of monohull sailing too, I suggest treating the F-Boats like a crossbread, but leaning more to the cats. My F24 mkI carries full sail single handedly to 20 knots. after that there is too much drag upwind for the drive given, and alot more at stake than a Hobie 17. Can do more wind if I have crew though. With a reef in the main and full jib, she really settles down and still goes very well, and is very balanced. Balance the sailplan to the wind like a mono, but you can depower with shape and trim similar to a cat for awhile, so you can be more aggressive than a mono would be there. My rules are: if you can keep the mainsail from luffing too much and the leward hull from being completely awash, you are OK. (watch the sea-state on that hull though) I don't think you need to work too much with mast rake unless you "only" sail in those conditions. (30ish)

Happy "tri-ing", hope we sail together again some day. (reefed or not)
:-)

Hey Mike, good to hear from you. Missed you this year.
Heavy air in Florida is a treat so I don't get a lot of opportunity to experiment in it with experienced crew. You are probably right I should leave my mast rake alone. Did you make it to the Corsair Nationals this year? They should have been pretty close to home for you.
I always look forward to racing against you anytime. Maybe you would crew with us sometime on the 28R?

Kathryn,

I did go to the BB Nats. My daughter and I hooked up with some great F-Boats and cruised around. We had a great time, without ever having a raceface on!
There's nothing like fast cruising and a comfortable place to stay too.

If I get near your area....I'll be looking for a ride! (you know where I am....the season is about over)

Mike
Gypsy F24mkI

Gang:

Friend had 28R flying in Bay Race today with main, jib and searcher, but had bad weather helm. It was blowing 20-28. What should he do next time?

Doug

1st thing to look at is the rudder. get it right down.

He said he left the steel pin out because of the shallow spots and stuff drifting in bay. He is thinking of a plastic pin or maybe some bungee cord? We are going out again Sat and I will watch it and feel it myself.

Doug