Rick I seen in your latest Cat Sailor Magazine that you are promoting the new Zhik PFD.Are you aware that it is not USGA approved.Is ther any talk of it becomming approved?
I actually just bought one and am hoping not to get protested for wearing it.

According to Mike Krantz you can only be protested if the SI's specifically state that a "USCG approved PFD" is necessary, If the SI's only require a "PFD" then you are OK. Mike is driving to FL right now so maybe he can chime in when he gets settled.

I wonder how many crybabies out there would protest a sailor for not wearing a Coast Guard approved life jacket.

I personally wouldn't care if you wore those inflatable floaties that slide on your arm

Be careful here guys, some class rules also rule that a bouyancy aid that is approved by the local authority must be worn while racing. So it is not just the SI's

Wouter

There's a problem when the class' rules require it, though.

For example, in the IHCA (Hobie) Class Rules, it states in the "General Rules" section:


Sailing Instructions can only change a class rule by stating the rule number and the change (RRS 86.1(b))

But since you guys rarely/never race Hobie One-Design, you don't have to worry about it. mmadge does. All it takes is one jerk who wants to improve his score at your expense. Guaranteed the protest won't come until the last day of an event.

The item in question is really comfortable and well made. It does; however, come with a big tag thats says "THIS IS NOT A LIFESAVING DEVICE"...

It'd be interesting to know the intent of it becoming approved.

Except, doesn't ISAF Regulation 26.5(f) apply and restrict changing the class rules for the ISAF-recognized classes?



I was always under the impression that if you race in an open event, you're supposed to follow your class rules. I know there are adjustments for equipment changes (adding a chute, etc.), but isn't there a general assumption that you will race your boat to its class rules?

I agree though, most likely, no one would ever protest you until after the racing, and usually only if they had something to gain. An OA might protest you depending on the level of the event, if there were on-water judges present, etc.

Mike

You're digging deep, Mike - I was trying to keep it simple. My point was that it's more likely that an SI would make an ineffective change than somebody would remember Reg 26.



How many protests for class rules violations occur in a Portsmouth class? Do you think the PC is going to have a copy of the IHCA / NACRA / whatever class rules handy?

The point was that you're less likely to get protested in an open class than in a fleet of one-designs.

Would your insurance pay out on a claim if it came to light that you were not wearing the required equipment?

Would the regatta insurance honor the claim if the event cordinators failed to ensure the proper equipment was worn?

Once they (race committe have knowledge, if they choose to do nothing I beleive they can be called negligent and therefore liable. (?)

Just wondering...

Thanks Matt, just confirming that I understand the rules correctly. I agree, the instances you list above happen every day, and rarely get pushed.

Don has some excellent reasons they maybe should be pushed. After someone is hurt it's too late to try to enforce the rules.

On a philisophical note, there could be a Catch-22 if you want to require an SI that modifies a class rule without realizing it (like Matt said, it would be tough to know all the rules for all the beach cats that could come out of the woodwork for an open event). If you stated that a specific type of lifejacket was required, but that conflicted with class rules (and you didn't follow Reg 26), what would that do? Fortunately, there aren't that many ISAF-recognized cat classes, so I guess an OA could spend some time reading all of those rules, but yikes...

I have seen some SIs for open mono events that are liberal with their class rule "over-rides," such as allowing (or prohibiting) VHF, etc. They don't list all the specific class rules they are changing, they just say something to the effect of "this takes precedence over individual class rules." Not sure how that technically would hold up.

Yes, it's winter... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Mike

I wonder if those "water noodles" come with a tag that says, "not intended as source of nutrition".

Hmm.... Who would be PRO of an event where they were responsible for a saftey equipment check?

You have extended regatta liability to a ridiculous level.

The RC... runs a race.. The CAPTAIN of the Vessel is responsible for saftey.

The minute you try to be Regatta Nanny... you take responsibility from the sailor... and move it to the regatta staff. BAD MOVE

Note... the Chicago to Mac Race has a HUGE saftey equipment check list.

Do you think they check the hundreds of boats out before they go racing.

NO!...

They check the winning boats out to ensure they followed the rules of the game....

Its a Corinthian sport!

If the race required a tiki girl doll on board and you did not have one... Oh well.. there goes your trophy... to the next best finisher with a tiki girl doll on board.

Many state laws require a PFD thowable on your vessel.... Do you carry one? No! .. Do you think the regatta staff should enforce this state law?

Heck If the marine police wanted to write some citations... they could ticket the entire regatta.

But did you break a racing rule.... nope!

Keep the two things seperate... Racing is not the same as liability and saftey at sea.

Coast Guard also says you must have one type I,II,III,or V onboard for every member ... If it doesn't fall in those categories it wouldn't pass a check. Unlikely you'd get checked during a regatta but possible.
http://uscgboating.org/safety/fedreqs/equ_pfd.htm

In Minnesota any boat over 16ft is supposed to carry a fire extinguisher. On a beach cat for what? I've been kinda hoping to get a ticket for that just for the entertainment of going to court.

Every boat that races Newport/Bermuda gets checked. I wouldnt be surprised if every boat in Chicago Mac gets checked.

How many lawyers dose it take to sink a sport ? perhaps future RC's will need to address this in the NOR's I would be a bit up set if after driving many costly miles to an event, only to find out my favorite life vest was not acceptable. Auh, but thats just me..lol

We do NOT need not re invent the wheel...

The 100th Chicago to Mac Race. (400 boat limit!)



Notice... Two points.

They don't have the now common (but useless)... proof of liability insurance requirement. In fact... they don't even bother with ANY recommendation for YOUR Liability protection. It's your business... they don't need to get involved in it.


The inspection process is random.... the practice is ... the winners and spot checks.

The list of what you need to have is Saftey Reg's for multi's .


With respect to the Zihk PFD.... IF it will do this... you are good to go! (32 lbs of flotation).




We need not re invent the wheel... We do not need to get crazy about the legal stuff either.

Here's a summary of the PFD situation. European countries require the PFD to be CE approved. The US requires the PFD to be USCG approved. Australia has their own requirement (however it accepts CE approval as legit), and so do some of the South American countries... For the most part they all require a certified construction and a minimum amount of bouyancy - pounds, newtons, etc. If you are an international athelete, you are required to have a whole bag full of PFD's if the SI's or class rules are specific enough to require a PFD that meets the local requirement. More and more often the SI's are being modified to specify a "PFD", no more, no less.

Meanwhile Zhik has chosen to adopt the European "CE" certification because at the moment it is being accepted in Europe and Australia - the majority of the worldwide sailing PFD market. The Zhik PFD is tagged as "Not Coast Guard Approved", and marketed as such. FWIW, Musto, Gill, and Magic Marine also market PFD's that are CE approved, not USCG approved. At this time the cost of getting USCG approval does not make economic sense for Zhik, nor any other non-US manufacturer.

Currently there is an international movement to adopt an ISO9001 standard that all countries can adopt, and end this entire process of certification within each authority.

Regards, Mike Krantz
Zhik USA

No, I was asking a question. Opening a line of discussion.

What is the insurance at a regatta for, and would it be jepeordized if they did not (at least in writing) mandate you follow the law.

Enforcement is another matter.

The Chicago race covers this by putting the list out and stating you must comply.

I remember in the 80's we all used to have throwables strapped down to the boat because it was required. None of them were usefull in their original purpose.

Suggestion. Tie a USCG approved pfd to the boat; one for each passenger. The little co2 waste packs are pretty lightweight. Better yet, wear it on your waist.