| |  Re: Zhik PFD
[Re: hobiegary]
#129086
01/17/08 11:16 PM 01/17/08 11:16 PM |
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa Don_Atchley 
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa | Suggestion. Tie a USCG approved pfd to the boat; one for each passenger. The little co2 waste packs are pretty lightweight. Better yet, wear it on your waist. I can't sail without wearing mine. But Gary, I think you've found a loophole that mirrors the throwables. I commend you for your creativity. The only catch to that I think would be when they require you to actually wear the PFD. Don't they fly a specific flag? Like I stated; I wear mine. I just can't push the envelope if I don't have it on. And when I hit the water, I just wait to get popped to the surface.
Hobie Tiger 2003
| | | Re: Zhik PFD
[Re: Don_Atchley]
#129087
01/18/08 12:24 AM 01/18/08 12:24 AM |
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf hobiegary
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf | To clarify my point: Wear the pfd of choice, even if it does not have the local authority tag. Attach a local authority tagged device also on the boat or on the sailor's body. Double the buoyancy.
GARY
Santa Monica Bay
Mystere 6.0 "Whisk" <--- R.I.P.
| | | Re: Zhik PFD
[Re: Don_Atchley]
#129088
01/18/08 12:39 AM 01/18/08 12:39 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys arbo06
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys | I was T-Boned by a 31' cabin cruiser while racing in a local race. I have never been the same since.
I never saw the power boat coming, I was sailing a H-20 on port tack, my 14 yeare old son on the wire, me still on the hull when we were plowed through the center, TBONED!
I bounced off the port hull of the offending craft as the mast drug my son under water with all of the trapeze hardware.
I popped up immediatly after the collision because I was not hooked up but I waited at least 10 seconds for my son to come to the surface (it was more like a lifetime).
When he came up, he popped at least a foot out of the water because of the PFD. He told me that he had to unhook under water because the mast was holding him down.(I can cry just thinking about this) This was the longest 10 seconds of my life, my mind was nutz.
My POV after that event is, DON'T SCREW AROUND, PROTECT YOURSELF AND YOUR CREW!!! COMFORT IS A FAR SECOND!!!
It doesn't matter what type of boating you do.. Invest in the best, it will serve you and you might live to tell about it. | | | Re: Zhik PFD
[Re: arbo06]
#129089
01/18/08 11:37 AM 01/18/08 11:37 AM |
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC Tornado
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC | Might be stirring up a hornets nest, but take a look at this Zhik: ![[Linked Image]](http://www.catsailor.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10057/normal_Modded%20Zhik.jpg) Note the white stitching where the shell has been opened to remove floation and re-stitched. This to reduce the windage of the vest!
Last edited by Tornado; 01/18/08 11:40 AM.
| | | Re: Zhik PFD
[Re: Tornado]
#129090
01/18/08 12:30 PM 01/18/08 12:30 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD | Ok...
What is the problem?
Well, the coast guard would have a problem. the vest is not legal.
Zhik would have a problem and void any implied or stated warranty. The PR would be very bad for them.
His team mate might have a problem if the situation really sucks and he is unable to render assistance.
The Mark boat crew might have a problem in rendering assistance if they assumed his vest would perform as all of the other vests on the other sailors. So, they may not be able to help save his butt in some situations.
The guy's family might have a problem after the fact..
What about US... his competitors.
If he is a Hobie sailor.... he is violating the PFD approval rule. So he is breaking an equipment rule.
If he is a Tornado sailor. I don't remember a class PFD rule.
Where would you draw the line.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Zhik PFD
[Re: mikekrantz]
#129091
01/18/08 11:06 PM 01/18/08 11:06 PM |
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX flumpmaster
addict
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addict
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX | Here's a summary of the PFD situation. European countries require the PFD to be CE approved. The US requires the PFD to be USCG approved. Australia has their own requirement (however it accepts CE approval as legit), and so do some of the South American countries... For the most part they all require a certified construction and a minimum amount of bouyancy - pounds, newtons, etc. If you are an international athelete, you are required to have a whole bag full of PFD's if the SI's or class rules are specific enough to require a PFD that meets the local requirement. More and more often the SI's are being modified to specify a "PFD", no more, no less.
Meanwhile Zhik has chosen to adopt the European "CE" certification because at the moment it is being accepted in Europe and Australia - the majority of the worldwide sailing PFD market. The Zhik PFD is tagged as "Not Coast Guard Approved", and marketed as such. FWIW, Musto, Gill, and Magic Marine also market PFD's that are CE approved, not USCG approved. At this time the cost of getting USCG approval does not make economic sense for Zhik, nor any other non-US manufacturer.
Currently there is an international movement to adopt an ISO9001 standard that all countries can adopt, and end this entire process of certification within each authority.
Regards, Mike Krantz
Zhik USA USCG Type II PFDs (the type often worn by Cat Sailors in the USA) are required to have a minimum of 15.5 lbs of flotation. The Zhik PFD is approved to CE EN 393 50 N which has a minimum flotation standard of 5 kg (11 lbs). Both the Zhik and Magic Marine PFDs appear to be more low profile than offerings that meet USCG Type II - which suggests that they have less foam and therefore less flotation. I'm not suggesting that the CE EN 393 compliant jackets are significantly less safe - but people should be aware of the differences and consider the conditions under which they race or sail when selecting a PFD. For example sailing on inland or protected waters in warm conditions and with safety boats versus sailing offshore in cooler water without support. The 35lbs of flotation that Mark referred to is for Type I PFDs are are designed to keep the wearers face above water even when unconscious. I have not seen many catsailors wear this type because of the reduction in mobility and lack of comfort when sat on a trampoline. Chris. | | | Re: Zhik PFD
[Re: Stewart]
#129093
01/19/08 01:01 AM 01/19/08 01:01 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969 brucat
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
| I've never understood the issue with wearing a PFD, but I know it's a hot button for a lot of people. One argument that comes up a bit is that you can be trapped under a tramp and be unable to swim down to get away. I sort of think it's like the seat belt argument, in some instances, wearing a seat belt might put you in a position to be killed, while being thrown from the vehicle might let you live. I don't want to test it, but it seems to me that the overwhelming odds are in favor of wearing PFDs and seat belts.
Anyway, whether a PFD is approved or not can be the subject of a protest, like any other equipment rule. I'm not a lawyer, so I won't speculate about how far an OA or RC should go with this, but there are some expectations that the rules be upheld.
Generally speaking in the Hobie classes, we won't protest a boat for an equipment issue without first speaking to a sailor and giving him the chance to retire. This normally comes after a competitor brings it to our attention, or we're able to see it on the water. If a competitor sees it, it should be up to them to protest, but if it's a major event, the IJ would make the appropriate inspection and decide whether a protest is warranted.
Mike | | | Re: Zhik PFD
[Re: flumpmaster]
#129096
01/19/08 07:15 AM 01/19/08 07:15 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe Wouter
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe |
The Zhik PFD is approved to CE EN 393 50 N which has a minimum flotation standard of 5 kg (11 lbs).
Such vest are not called lifevests but bouyancy aids. They do NOT rescue you, The idea behind these vests is that they allow you to float your face (mouth and nose) above the watersurface without excerting yourself with swimming or watertreading, even when packed with gear and clothing. As such you can survive longer as you cool down your body temperature less rapidly and don't waste energy. Basically your body will shut down all blood circulation to your limbs and only concentrate it to your torso. It is numbing and painful but you'll survive longer. It also allows you to survive when your muscles cramp up as, again, you don't need to watertread or swim to prevent yourself from dissappearing below the watersurface. It is actually a swimming aid and not a rescue devise. There is also a reasoning that too much positive floation or a real lifevest can be dangerous. These can pin you underneath your craft as it can be very hard to swim downwards against the provided floatation to clear any obstacles. I also think that the lack of croin belts is a design choice to be able to quickly removed the vest when needed. Wouter
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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