Here is an F104 photo. I'm sure this design is faster than the AHPC F16 Viper.

That'll make a nice change from shoveling snow <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Good, if it brings more people to the sport so we can show them the F16 both on and off the water. The 104 is no scare, I think the concept is too thin to succeed. Since you seem incredibly well informed about the inner working of Hobie Europe, NACRA and AHPC, perhaps you can tell me why they think the 104 is good enough to scrap old successful models and introduce something new and unproven?
Like I said earlier, a comparison between the introduction of the F18 to 18HT is not very valid in my opinion. You will have to point out to me why you keep on comparing those two and how this applies to the F16 concept and the 104.



I have talked with Marcus, Phill and others and know a bit about the challenges. We are doing three strip plank Blades in my garage just now, and weight is a great concern to us. We are not doing a production run to make money, so we can use wood, which is a better material than carbon/foam for the hulls of a F16 or even a Tornado. Just look back at the Gougeon T's and the hype around Marstrøms earlier boats which killed them off. Marstrøm did not build a desent T until 86 or therearound. I think it was Wouter that said earlier that carbon was often an excuse for poor engineering, which is a good point. If you look harder at the issue at hand, I think you will find that you dont need carbon, pre-pregs, autoclaves, kevlar honeycomb etc. etc. to build a lasting, stiff and competitive F16 down to min weight. Weight in the hulls dont neccesarily mean that the boat is more robust or will be competitive longer. With poor engineering and quality it will often be the other way, its competitive life is actually shorter. What is the competitive life of a F18 these days and what was it like in the beginning? Doing it right the first time is better than adding materials and cheap workhours.
I dont understand in what respect I am kidding myself?



We are all doomed to be obsolete becouse our boats are not heavy enough to suit NACRA and Hobie Europe.. Nah, think I'll keep on working on our garage project with technology from the 1940s in good faith that the F16 is here to stay. I think Hobie Europe and NACRA dont have the will to invest in the quality control needed for a min weight F16 (and you dont need carbon to do that). Those two companies will never do an A cat either, for the same reasons, but that class thrives even with the cost of owning a competitive one.
BTW: You can hardly use the F18 vs 18ht as an historic example of F16 vs 104 when the historic facts dont match the present.

Is this the boat Nacra won't build?

Actually Nacra never build that model, it was Melvin and Morrelli who did that and Nacra who handled the marketing and distribution.

Now I'm told that nacra has complete stopped their side of the A2/A3 project although I would like to find more confirmation for that statement.

Hobie did announce to build an A-cat about 18 months to 2 years ago but we never heard from that again.

Wouter

Wouter is on top of it David. As far as I know NACRA did not build the hulls for the A2. If you have other information, it will be interesting to be proven wrong.

1) Nacra and Hobie aren't interested in the 1.04 according to me, they just happen to produce cats with a rating of about 1.04 (long before the 1.04 started to show up).
Mind that the FXOne Extreme commercial doesn't state anything about the 1.04 but states it hopes to give the current F16 boats serious competition...

2) the 1.04 will never be a real formula class as long they have no boxrule. If anyone thinks the Hobie FXOne, the I-17 and Cirrus will have the same performance in every type of weather they are wrong. Differences in weight, mast height, width and lenght of the platform, ....
What if SCHRS changes one parameter in their measurements? The 1.04 class will loose or gain some platforms...

3) The F16 has a rating close to the F18 and A-cat rating. (The F16 rating is closer to the F18 then some F104 are to each other). Certainly in Europe with the big F18 fleets I find it an asset to sail on elapsed time with the F18

Anyway, we'll dig up this thread again within 5 years and check where the F16 class is at that moment.

Gill

As Wouter says. Nacra DO NOT build it. They just sell it.

Hi Taipanfc
My quick reply to your original question/problem would be;
If you have enough entrants to make a separate fleet start go with it. Otherwise, it's a case of handicap racing using the TEXEL rating system as you suggest. If a Viper arrives without a measurement certificate then I think they should have the correct F16 rating depending on the number of crew.
However, if a Viper does turn up with a correct measurement certificate stating their TEXEL rating then they have a choice, either sail as an F16 if there is a fleet or in the handicap class.
This problem does arrive in the UK occasionally at Open Meetings and who's sailing single handed, two up or (F16), usually the sailors sort it out well before racing commences so we all have a good time.
I hope this helps and you have a great Regatta.

Steven

The 18HT comparison is not so good for the USA experience.

The sailors interested in the 18HT class were looking for a boat with performance similar to the A class.... Light and quick. They also liked the development aspect of the class rules. the class formed on the east coast specifically for racers with a really good race circuit that got 10 boats out and that lasted two years. The crashing dollar and life changes for the class core caused it's demise not the boat concept.

BUT these sailors had checked out the new F18's as well (Tigers and Nacra F18's) before picking the 18HT .... They sailed the F18s... and they were not impressed by the boats.... in their view... more of the same... aka a big heavy boat... the F18 was not performing like a 20 (power) and not like an A class (light and easy to manage) Particularly in the wind conditions found on the EAST COAST!!! .. So... they choose the F18 HT.

Now about 4 times as many sailors were F18 inclined sailors... When Hobie annouced that the Tiger would come without the dammed comp tip... (unlike the aborted FOX) you had a huge amount of interest. They thought that the stability provided by Hobie and Nacra made the F18 a certain winner. They argued... tougher boat... will last longer... hold its value... , development was not going to cost them to keep up with the fleet…. For sure... the USA would follow the EU and love the F18. Much like Obama mania... they had a kumbayah sing along. They even shared a NA's in the beginning. It was a transformational time. ....

But then reality check time

The Hobie class assn went their own way... the NAF18's were balkanized.
Yeah... the F18 was not much fun under 10 knots....(most of our seasonal sailing season) but nobody talked about that.
Most sailors were new to spinnakers and for a time the boat was declared fun ... but wind is still needed to make the heavy boat perform. For sure... big fleets would soon appear and that would be fun. Hey... that was the EU experience.... You must have gotten the press release.

But so far... the class is much ado about nothing on the east coast. boats sold... does not mean boats that go racing. Best as I can tell... the NAF18's managed ONE regatta with 5 boats or more on the line all of 2007 on the east coast. Syracuse did a little better with Tiger only fleet.
So, with out major buy in of the east coast sailors... the F18 class is stuck. those that own the boat... only go to a nationals or a regional championship. the rest of the time... they sail something else.

During this 5 year period... the Nacra 20 fleet has recovered a lot of sailors who dropped down to the F18's for the dream.

The distance races give the N20's a real reason to go racing. The F18's.... tend not to show up for distance races.

The A class continued to grow and grew quite a bit (approx 70 US boats at the worlds) (I14 and 505 sailors dropping into the class plus conversions from older two man catamarans ) and TA DA a real demand for the F16 concept emerged slowly and surely over time.

The F16 (Aka Taipan 4.9 with chute) and the Nacra F17 appeared on the US scene about the same time. It has taken a domestic builder and a strong dealer who converted the nacra 5.5uni fleet into the Nacra F17 fleet. (by way of the I20 and F18 two man boats). They have a nice 25 boat class in Michigan and Ohio that goes racing. They have not been able to break out of this region.

In my area.... the sailors would try the Nacra, Taipan or A class. They did not particularly care about the class racing for the boat . If they wanted a chute... they bought a Taipan.... they hated the nacra (too heavy). if they really wanted class racing... they bought an A class. (The FX one appeared and disappeared with the falling dollar. ..)

3 or 4 years later a domestic builder (Blade) is on the scene ... nobody thinks twice about the nacra (or fx1) and the strong Michigan fleet of 25 boats in the class.. .
If the racing class is not already formed and active in your area... the clear choice is the F16. I think most of the sailors LIKE sailing the boat and dabble in racing… so the class viability issue is less important.

If you want a boat to race in a large class... you pick an A class or Hobie 16. (other viable classes exist around the country as well

To me... the message from the history is.

The Hobie 16 racer ( a huge target for any 16 foot class) is simply not interested in ANY spin boat.

The sailing experienc is critical. (20's offer power) The A class... well what's to say./.. the Hobie 16, ease, simplicity, great class with a structure that sustains it)

To the avid cat sailor... (notice I did not say racer) It's all about the sailing experience... first and foremost. the light weight of the F16 is a real plus factor.

A new intro fiberglass starter boat is likely to loose to the Hobie rotomolded escape. If you want more boat….and fiberglass… you probably look at the 18 or 19 foot boats with a tamer rig… in the end… you are looking to put lots of family on the boat.

For the sailors getting a Blade... The fact that you are light and either as fast or faster then an A cat (which is now a large fleet) on your F16 is a real plus for a weekend warrior AND you get the spinaker fun.

IMO, the F104/F16 Viper had best be an equal performer to the taipan’s and blades in the USA or Jill’s garage will be full for a LONG time.

A new concept… like a level rating 104 class will be a non starter. Hobie USA won't support it. Unless, the N17 is grandfathered in... I can't see nacra supporting it either.

The level racing concept is even MORE alien to the US Sailor then Portsmouth/Handicap racing.

(previous incarnations were the Nacra 5.8 and the Prindle 19 the Mystere 6.0 and the Nacra 6.0, the Hobie 20 and the Prindle 19 MX… All were doomed by a clear winner on the water …. I can't see How a builder can sell that level rating notion as fair racing and have anyone believe him. ... Heck... IMO... the negative vibes drove the box rule concept of formula as something that was acceptable alternative to SMOD). Moreover, most clubs would NOT want to divide the small number of racers on the water into yet another sub division.

Time will tell.... It is a shame that the cat world insists on a million solutions to the problem.

Scooby and Rolf,

No, I no just remembered that I'd seen the A2 page on the Performance site. I didn't know that Nacra was just doing PR for the boat. I should have suspected something when I didn't see the A3 mentioned since it has been around for some time. It's always something.

name one boat designed specifically for the 104 class... I can think of boats modified for the class. Hell I could modify a F18 or A to fit the class. Actually perhaps all F18s should be modified to fit the 104 class!! Just think how fast the 104 would grow then!!

As for the clap trap

Next time I come across a Taipan 4.9 I should wonder if Im looking at a myth or boats that are competitive for 15+ years. Pray tell how much carbon is in a Taipan? What none? amazing!!
Next time I look at a home build ply Blade I will stop and awe at the complexity of a 50 year old technology.
Next time I get to glimpse a Stealth, I should bow to how wonderous the builders are.. Ok the Stealth company does a better job than any F18 builder, no question but really who couldnt? Then F18s will morph into 104s soon anyway right?

Or I could just accept your really really biased and this blinkers you.


So the crapola you try and spread to over compensate for lard is, just that crap.

So serious question.. When you making your F18 into a 104 and show us all the way?

I guess we can all push our own points of view here in a virtual space forever....

I however will go and race this year on an F18 in real fleets supported by real manufacturers and with very high quality competition.

Contrary to claims made in this thread there is serious interest from large manufactuers in a F16 style boat but at the moment it's simply not viable for the large builders to make boats at the stated weight, add the issue of the optional carbon mast and you are looking at having an F16 cost more than an F18 which is not desirable from a marketing or practical point of view.

104 seems to be a way to go for large manufacturers for now as it has some leeway for builders to achieve a level rating via differing approaches. It may not be the perfect solution but at least it allows volume manufacturers to enter the market.

I wish F16 all the best and I can see that with the right support and management it can achieve great success. I fear though that it will remain the internets largest class....

Real question would be that would we gain any new builders if would raise the min weight? Bimare certainly wouldn't be there <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. Also with 104 they can put a new sticker to existing product and F16 even with higher weight they would need to spend money for designing something new.

However I still think that if there would be serious interest among builders to enter the class then I think that class should think about it, otherwise this whole discussion is quite pointless.

This discussion is just that Valtteri, pointless. There are two persons bringing rumours to the table, and they keep coming back with just that, rumours. These rumours are secondary to the F-16 class. Reading these posts reminds me of good old f.u.d. but it is unclear to me who is to gain and it dont fit well with how I know Macca and Steve.

Steve and Macca are both welcome to become members and suggest changes to our rules so we can vote on it after a discusscion with a purpose. But creating a stink here becouse they dont feel the love when posting such poorly tought trough stuff is.. Well.

You correct, you should go make your F18 a 104.. Then you will have even more "real competition".. Say if all F18, Tornados and "A" also became 104s then imagine the class racing!!

Personally I will go sail my mythical F16..

Hi all,

amazing how a thread can go wild, while I am busy doing other things (Working&Sailing) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Great to see some interest from Australians in the Formula 16 forum, I wish we had more input from Aussies more often. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think expecting tha F16 owners that post here to be supportive of anything but F16, would be unlikely. Afterall we like what we sail, that is why we own F16's and post on the F16 forum. Discussing other classes and ideas is allways welcome, but you can't expect us to support changes to a established class that we are obviously happy with.

As for the need to have Hobie and Nacra manafacturing for the class to be a success <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. I am sorry but I think slow growth by manafacturers and home builders that are committed to the class is the way to go. I have seen some classes burst on to the scene and dissapear just as quickly.

After all I for one did not get into this class to sail in big fleets, who's rules are dominated by Multi National manafacturers, I would have chosen other classes if that was what I wanted <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. I sail this class because I want to sail a cat with a spinnaker on my own, that is of a weight I can handle on my own and can be built to weight by manafacturers that care to try to make good boats not larger profits. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I should finish by saying these are my own personal opinions as a long term F16 sailor. By the way I have to go to get ready for another weekend of sailing <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Guys, you are missing the point.

I am in favour of F16 being a success, however I strongly feel that if you want it to be that then you really need to get the big two involved. Sure you can head down the back yard builder path and hope it grows organically but I don't think it will be as effective as getting the big two on board and utilising the large distribution and marketing power they bring to the table.

At the moment you run the risk of being viewed as the outsiders with a nice idea but no way to implement it accross the market in a speedy fashion required to gain share in a competitive market place.

Wouter, you really need to stop taking hte high ground and actually get out there and go sailing, Show the world the F16 and they will show interest.

I did every major regatta in the Netherlands last year and I never once saw you! How about you do some travelling this year and promote the class. Come to the North Sea Regatta in May.

Yeah sorry typo, was ment to say 6

:-)

The 104 is still very much just a work in progress, however they are attracting some serious interest from manufacutes. At present boats are modified but soon you will see purpose designed boats.

The F16 class started much the same way with modified T4.9s. They even decided to ‘grandfather’ boats that really did not fit the class rules (such as weight, sail area, small rules <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />) to help build their fleet numbers. The Blade and Stealth are purpose built F16s...... Any others? H16 with kite, Spitfire, Mossie ect ...... Don’t count.




The 4.9 was designed for small sail area, small crew weight = smaller loads.

Add kite and extra beam, will add extra loads the boat was not designed for. Those beams are not adequit for the job and AHPC know this.

Tell me, why are all the F16s coming in overweight without correctors brand new????? Is the min weight a bit optimistic. My F18 weighs in (yes heavy) at 175.3 kg and I carry 4.7 kg lead (5kg max allowed in F18 class rules). Most Capricorns vary between 175 and 177 kg. Lead is used to equalise the boat weights. The luxury we have also is the ability to remove weight as the boat gets heavier. It is also not as critical for us to use super light fittings and our boat’s systems can be built with a greater focus on reliability.

Why not set the F16 class weight at 120 or 130 kg. Boats can be built comfortably to this weight with sturdier beams and and more support in the hulls where it is needed. And done so in a more economical way by the home builder and the manufactures including Vectraworks, Formula Catamarans and Stealth.

Boats can hit the water at 115 to 117 or 125 to 127 with 3 to 5 kg off corrector weights added. Thus giving a 120 to 130 kg min weight.




Boat is on the market at the moment and am looking at other options. F16 is interesting but the class is still very amateurish and I do not see a lot of stability or growth in the class in the future. I want to spend my hard earned $$$$ but do not see the F16 as a wise investment at this point in time.