You could always buy a F16 now with the knowledge that you could beef it up to fit into the 104 class, its called hedging your bets.

My bet is that once you had a F16 you would not consider the 104 class as it would mean you would have to cart another 15 odd kilos up and down the beach and you would have to dumb the whole package down to match the other less competitive boats. Mind you starting off with an F16 would be one hell of an advantage as you could ballast it in all the right places.

I have raced F18s, Tornadoes, A Class, Tapian 4.9s and F16s (modified 4.9s). You barley notice the difference 20kg makes to a boat on land or water, particulary with good beach wheels. I can manage by F18 around the beach easier by my self than the 105kg Taipans with cheap rollers. It seems most light weight class' (A Class an exception) don't believe they should invest in good beach rollers and we watch them struggle whilst our 180kg heavyweights are manuvered with ease around the beach.

An extra 20kg will be notice by the manufactures and eventualy the customers back pocket. It will also reflect in fleet numbers as more manufactures climb on board.

I'll take racing in a quaility and profesional fleet any day even if it means at 180kg or 130 kg for a single hander.

6 years of development have seen how many manufactures commit to a dedicated F16? and how many optimised F16s Racing.

I understand your reasoning even when I don't agree with it because last time I checked ALL commericially build F16's underquote any F18 by at least 2000 Euro's !

But that is not all as ALL commericially build F16's also underquote the heavy singlehanders like Inter-17 and FX-one (when both are fully rigged) by almost the same amount. So much for making heavy boats cheaper !

Why are now arguing that F16's are expensive ?

I mean there is indeed general validity of your reasoning but somehow F16's, as things stand, do not not follow that reasoning at all.

The question to you now is what is wrong here, your reasoning or the F16 boat for being so inexpensive ?

Wouter

Wouter,

check this out.


ref: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...er=132676&Main=132506#Post132676

I dont know who is correct here?


Mark, in your historic review of the f18ht class in the US, I think you could have put more emphasis on how important just a single person was for the development and the collapse?

While you are at it, try to get the Tornado class to up the weight by 20kg.

If this is indeed the case then I warmly welcome these large manufactorers to approach the F16 Governing Council and make a concrete proposal of what thet want changed and a solid agreement that they will then promote the (their) F16 over their current FX-one and I-17 boats.

Without it they don't have anything worth negociating over. If they are not willing to do this then they are not serious anyway and we are better off without them.

Lets be clear about one thing here. The F16 class has proven herself beyond any doubt by establishing herself and growing herself to a level that simply rivals any alternative put forward by any big builder (incl. the Taipans) and the F16 group did that without any budget and without any major builder support. Hell we even "created" our own builders (Stealth, VWM, Aussie Blade) to service the class.

As the situation stands now, we don't need to initiate anything towards any builder, big or small, because basically we're the winners here and they are the "runners up".

If they want something or if they are interested in joining then it is they who will have to approach us and make us interested in what they have to offer. I'm sure that the whole Formula 16 class will treat their proposals with great care and deliberation.

But painting all kinds of disaster scenarios for the F16 class simply because of something in our 5 year old ruleset is rediculous. As if our ruleset were indeed anything but well thought out then we would never have come to the point were we are now.


Are we arrogant ?

Probably.

Have we deserved our right to be arrogant ?

Gawd Darn right we did !

We took on any and all competition from FX-one and Taipan to F18HT and came out on top every single time.

So if Hobie, Nacra and others like Boulogne are interested then they know what they have to do.

Wouter

Macca,





That is funny because I did see you !

Also at the Global Challenge; I was actually no more then 5 meters away. None of the Aussie cared to introduce me to you but that is fine.

Also I'm not a major catamaran racer. I'm far more a designer, promoter and class builder. That is what I brought to the F16 class. I could do what I did because of excellent volunteers like Phill contributed what they were/are really good at. Because John and Matt contributed their production facilities and guys like Paul, Rolf and many other filled in the smaller holes.

The F16 class got where it got to it is because we all stood on eachothers shoulders and we all did we all do best individually. And racing is not my individual strong point.

With regard to the North Sea regatta.

That is a BS regatta for any class other then F18's and Dart 18's as the organisation strongly favours One-Design starts and the Open class for cats attracts only the most sorry bunch of dissimilar boats in shameful low numbers.

Personally I'm not a excellent racer but even I have no trouble waxing the ears of some recreational crew on some beat up old Hobie 18.

No I'm not seriously considering North Sea Regatta by a long stretch.

Wouter

Stephen, you are now simply guessing at stuff you obviously don't know sqad about, sorry.

I did all the mathematics (ohhh dirty word) on it and there are several widened Taipans sailing about with full F16 rigs. None of them ever broke down.

Here are the pictures to proof the point.

http://f16.beasts.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=1641

All pics in the middle are a Taipan F16 build and sold by AHPC themselves. There are 4 of these in NL and Northern Germany. They were purpose build that way; wide and with a full F16 fit out.

You can contact Greg and ask for his confirmation. He will tell you that they simply used the same mainbeam and dolphinstriker as that was overdimensioned on the Taipan anyway.

Apart from that we have several modified Taipans that have been sailing as upgraded boats for years now without any issues. And the fact that all alu masted F16 rigs like that on the Blades use the Taipan Superwing mast as well as some other parts. No problems there either. Check the weather conditions at Alter Cup 2007 and GC 2007. If anything was about to break then we would have seen it at those events alone.

I think this proof a thing or two. But mostly that you are completely wrong on these issues.

I'm truly sorry but that is just the God honest truth.

Wouter

Stephen,

Nobody is forcing you to buy and sail a F16.

If you feel that lifting up your F18 by the bow (90 kg) to put the beach wheels under the hulls is less work then doing the same with an F16 (55 kg); then hey ! don't let me stop your life path towards the physiotherapist.

If you don't believe in the F16 concept then don't get into it. There are enough others who do !

If the big builders are not able to build true F16's then that is okay as well. We don't have them now and can service the demand using our own producers just fine. I think the +125 kg builders are overlooking that fact. We got by pretty well without them over the last 6 years, why do we suddenly need them now ? This is a two way street and right now the big boys are not offering us anything of value.

If AHPC feels like you that 20 kg additional weight doesn't make much difference in performance, then GREAT as the F16 rules allows any boat to be overweight anyway. If they feel that we should all just slap on anything from 5 to 18 kg of lead to our mainbeams to equalize ourselves to the Viper then they are living in a fantasy world.

And of course Stephen you can buy a nice 112 kg Aussie Blade F16 round around the corner. If you think 20 kg is no biggy performance wise then why worry about 5 kg ? (= 112-107 kg)

So what is the REAL issue here !

Wouter

The last quote I have of the I-17R (US version with carbon mast) for a European customer was 17.800 Euro I believe. That guys bought a Stealth eventually.

I'm sure the alu masted I-17 is alot cheaper, but I have no firm quotes yet. The thread you provide suggest that the NEW I-17 (how many versions now ?) is over 3000 USD cheaper then any F16 in USA.

Others appear to say this I-17 costs 12.000 USD. I want to know whether that is fully rigged with spi and selftacking jib kit.

Also I'm not to sure whether the VWM Blades are running at 15.000+ USD. Alot of interested parties remember the Alter Cup boat pricing but these were full kevlar boats with carbon daggerboards and rudders and a suit of Glaser sails. Does that 12.000 USD I-17 come with anything like that ? Those Alter Cup boats were specials.

I'm personally not to worried. 12.000 USD is a good price for a boat like the I-17, but I want to see them hold that price beyond the initial promo launch.

From a promo point of view the answer to this new alternative to the F16 is simple. This I-17 has a infusion (F18) mast with a F18 size mainsails. Basically it is a F18 rig on a 17 foot platform. Try singlehanding that !

Or

If you think raising the F16 alu mast at 14 kg (bare sectio) is hard work then try the F17 infusion mast (bare 18 kg = +30%).

We can even start calling it a F18 with a foot of bow chopped off and 25 kg less weight (it is still 150-155 kg fully rigged).


Good luck !

Wouter

Ah, but every class needs critical mass and guru's to get that level. Without critical mass the class is not that attractive and there must be some pioneers that take class to that level. Of course it helps if there is good level competitors in class. I was kind of hoping that you would be one of our pioneers/gurus down under with you experience <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

IMHO The weight issue should be seen as someones opinion how to make F16 class better and not go to personal level even if disagreeing with this opinion <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

so again I ask.. when are you making your F18 into a 104?

All,

You need to add a lot more than 15kg to make a F16 into a 104.



As for the extra 20kg that "you barely notice"; I will pullinmg it up the slipway!



Weight is only of use to Steam rollers. I don't want to sail a steam roller.

Ok, so again I am reminded of a what a wise man once told me about arguing on the internet....

Good luck with it guys, I look forward to seeing 100 plus fleets in the near future and everyone competing happily with a mix of carbon and alloy masts, beams etc... All boats will be made by Buddhist monks out of hand grown sheets of plywood and nobody will complain when someone turns up with a set of 3DL carbon sails....

Hi Steve
Just a small point but this is the second time you've said the Taipan was not designed to have a spinnaker. According to Greg's "History of the Taipan" that used to be on the AHPC site, the first time Greg and Jim raced the first Taipan it was already rigged with a spinnaker. It was designed with one from the start.

It's a shame that document doesn't seem to be there any more. The account of them trying to cope with the spinnaker first time out in too much wind was a good read.

you are a unit Wouter, I do talk to Greg and have as little as 2 weeks ago.

Let me quote Marcus since I do not have any clue

FUny how the Blade is not making min weight and Marcus is asking for the weight to be raised.

Even F16 home builders are asking for the weight to be rasied as they can not make min weight.

At your Global challenge, only 1 boat made min with others at 112 to 120, 130 and 137.

Surely it would be in the claases best interest to set an achievable min weight and with the use of correctors can balance out all boats.

120 kg limit with a 5 kg max lead limit can alow builders to produce boats between 115 and 120, making up the difference to 120 with lead.

What part of boat is on the market is unclear.

I only got into the F18 class for the AUS Worlds. Now for the next project.

Hi Scooby,

I personally am not interested in the 104 class. A 120 kg F16 would be more realistic. Why should people stuggle to make a boat down to weight with most failing to achieve.

Why not propose a 120 min with the use of 5 kg max lead correctors much like the F18 class. Previous built boats can be granfathered to carry a little more lead but new boats must not exceed 5 kg of correctors.

This should be discussed with current and future manufactures, not sailors who are not involved with manufature in any reasonable volume.

Thoughts ??????

When my boat was built had to add weights.