As I have stated here several times now: I am here as an individual.

Rolf, The F18 world council stated the build numbers in December 2007. But you won't believe me so how about you go and ask them yourself. Wayne, as to publishing balance sheets of privately held companies... well I think you knew the answer to that one before you made the comment. Why cant you accept something that I state as a fact? I have not been shown previously to be telling fibs.

Just because you don't like/agree with my statement does not make it a Lie!

I have been stating facts in here the whole time yet I am constantly fielding accusations of lying. One example is the 3DL issue. I have stated only facts on the matter yet Wouter has outright called me a liar on the matter. I have asked him to disprove me and then he goes quiet on the matter.
How about we use that as the "litmus test", You prove me wrong on that issue and I will concede and never return to your hallowed forum? If I am right (which I am) you will all stop with the childish liar, liar, pants on fire routine...

Right from my first post I have been acting with the class' bets interest in mind. Those who are so vehemently against my suggestion are the ones that want the class to remain as it is today: Small and unrecognised. My suggestions are aimed at changing that so that the class can become expand and become something of note. I think the best road for F16 to go down includes obtaining ISAF recognised status and ultimately being used as an ISAF youth class, this would trickle down through MNA’s and then there would be some real support both in terms of coaching and funding for youth cat sailing on boats that are more representative of modern cat sailing then the current youth boats.

F16 in its current form will never achieve that status. It is well outside what ISAF are looking for. The changes I suggest are not as bad as many of you think. The boats will still be fast and fun, They will still be easy to handle on the beach, there will just be a lot more of them! Hell they might even be cheaper.

Finally, for the good of F16 someone needs to help Wouter control his brain to keyboard connection. He does way more damage to F16 from the “inside” than anyone from the outside could ever hope to do.

Macca,

If you truly want to help the class, buy a boat and join us; Once you sail one, you will find you like it just fine.

If you then want to change the class rules, get a proposl together, get a seconder and then propose it to the GC.

Telling a class that you are not a member of what is in their best interestes is not going to gain much weight until you are a member of that class.

Cheers

Simon

Hey Macca come on in and join us, one thing is for sure, you will not be able to change things as far as weight etc goes until you own a boat, the internet afterall is only a snapshot of personal views. Own a boat, put forth a proposal and all the members will vote, we are a very democratic community.

Anyway why the one man mission to save ourselves, if you are so convinced then set up your own class and get on with it. In 5 years time I hope you will acheive your own personal goals, my personal goal is to continue sailing F16's as they suit my own personal requirements.

You are here as an individual all of a sudden, creating havoc and enjoying a hard time? I know a lot of stuff I would prefer to do before I did something like that, so I have trouble accepting that.

I have a hard time accepting what you say about production numbers for 2007 when Greg say it is a third of what you said. It would be good if you could document what you say. Your credibilty have plummeted since you began this campaign to make the F16 class change it's class rules to accomodate your vision.

The 3DL thing you put so much emphasis on is nothing more than a question of definitions. You are splitting hairs in a very childish way or for your own agenda. It is you who have blown a bi-sentence up to be a major personal issue.

How can you say that you act with the best interest of the class in mind when the class disagrees? How are you acting with the best interest of the class in mind when all you do is poisoning our forum? You have been pointed to the proper procedure numerous times, but you dont want to make a difference. You have even been invited to discuss your opinions with the class in private, but have declined. You are obviously doing what you do for your personal interest or someone elses interest. You being a professional sailor makes this behaviour scandalous. I know you sailed for NACRA last season, but if I was head of NACRA, I sure would not hire someone with your poor manners and jugdement again. In fact, I think I'll make the NACRA resellers I know in person read up on what you have done here so they know what kind of person NACRA chooses to represent them. Dont try to turn this around to be a Wouter issue, you Andrew Macpherson is the issue here.

Guys,

I know I would enjoy sailing an F16, they are great boats, but you need to realise that having a great boat is not a perfect formula for a great class...

F16 would still be a great boat with some changes to foster growth. I seriously doubt you would notice any real performance differences and you would get a ratings benefit as a bonus.

Sam Evans, err.. I mean Andrew, go away. That is a topic for class members.

It is sure alot easier to make a great class that way then trying to do it with a "not-so-great" boat.

Wouter

Not all of a sudden, I have always said that I was here as an individual. You give yourself too much credit if you think a manufacturer would bother with this forum.





I am beyond having to justify the figures with you. I think that if I sent an notarised copy of the build numbers you would still dispute it authenticity. I am confident with the facts, if you want to refute them I suggest you go and do your own research.



Rolf, Wouter called me a Liar on the 3DL comment. I take that very seriously. There is no hair splitting on my part. Its very simple: I stated that a 3DL sail has no Broadseams (the truth) and Wouter claimed that 3DL sails do indeed have Broadseams. If you all want to question my credibility then why aren't you looking at his? He is the one that has made a false statement.



The offer to discuss the matter in private was made in a PM from Wouter that included such Gems as:

Is it any wonder I declined the offer…?




So by that reasoning I should be contacting everyone you deal with in a professional capacity and explain to them that you have been nasty to me on a web forum? Get real mate. I represent myself in this forum and nobody else. (I think I must have said this 5 or 6 times now)

I thought PM's were of a confidential nature between individuals, as you are only to happy to drop Wouters PM to you directly onto the net then may I disclose the following, they are your words to me in a PM virtually at the start of this thread.

"I know where you are coming from, but I have been tasked with assesing F16 as a possible path and one of the criteria is the rules need to be tightened and the weights need to be more realistic for volume production."

Now my guess "being tasked" has to imply being paid or hired buy an employer. Again I think there is more to you than being a bit pesky and arrogant, but rather you have a vested interest in trying to change the present F16 rules ?

Actually I called you " ... a right fool ..." and there is a difference between that and a liar.

Readers can check for themselves :


I said :



Which can be found in this post : http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...umber=133244&page=0&vc=1


We all know already that you have a strenious hold on reality, Macca, there is no need to proof it many times over.


Additionally :

Macca = Andrew McPherson

- works for Nacra Europe
- sails/races a dealer supplied Nacra Infusion F18 in EU and AUS
- is by his own admission tasked by a non-F16 entity to change the F16 class (rules)
- was offered a private audience to discuss his (+ associated builder) points in depth but quickly declined.
- is about as much interested in buying a F16 for himself as I am in buying a Hobie Tiger for singlehanding.


Wouter

Andrew, the best thing you can do for yourself is to leave the forum and let time gloss over this. From now on you have nothing to gain but you can always loose.

Yo Andrew, if that was intended to be a response to my comment, you tooootally missed my point.

Mark.

What a fuss about nothing on this forum. Unbelievable. It is only still interesting for people studying psychiatry. Do something useful with your time and energy, ride a bike. In any case, do not react on this message. I will not read it because this was my last visit.

sjon.....I am with you

And you know what, you are right. I am sorry for having contributed, but I dont know what I should have done different. When we loose guys like you from the meeting place of the class, we need to do something.

Ignore him.

I have read through a lot of this stuff, and I STILL have no idea what all this fuss is about. Can somebody please give me links to the specific posts that have caused all this controversy?

I get the impression that it has something to do with minimum boat weight? If so, what is the big deal?

Heck, when I make a suggestion on a forum, usually people just totally ignore me. Why can't you guys do that to this Andrew person if you don't like whatever it is he is saying. And, as I said, I still have no idea what this brouhaha is about.

If you don't want it reincarnated, somebody please send me a private message to enlighten me.

I've met Macca personally (although briefly) and treating him like a troll is IMO not fair since he is probably one of the best sailors on the forum by quite some margin (except for Bundy offcourse!) and knows his stuff.

Ignoring him here does not resolve anything, we might as well continue the discussion and finish it for good. (and please everyone stop taking everything so seriously). <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Anyway. The discussion about 3DL and broadseaming got some people excited but since I never take anyone's word for anything (I work in IT<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) I decided to form my own opinion.

Here are my own findings (not that anyone cares, but otherwise I spent an hour Googling for nothing;)):
3DL/Broadseaming discussion:
Broadseaming is indeed not used in 3DL sails. I define a seam as the area where two pieces of cloth are sewn together.
Since there is no sewing there cannot be any seams, no discussion there right?
The panels that go onto the 3D mould are shaped to fit but more for practical reasons than for shaping the sail. And if the panels are joined together on the mould this is only temporarily and does not qualify as broadseaming.
Anyone please correct me if i'm wrong, but this is how I understand it.

Boat weight discussion:
In think Macca has a point where he says (If I interpret correctly. Macca?) that there could potentially be an arms race going on all while staying within the class rules.
In theory he is right, you could buy a nice new Blade today and the next day some Bartarelli wannabe comes along and spends $$$ on exotic building materials and totally be The Man and perform total pwnage on the race course.
In practice however this is very unlikely since the spirit of the class is also affordability and class growth.

Did I sum everything up correctly?

In my observation the class wants to be both a development class like the A's and a commercial class like the F18s.
Maybe these just don't go together very well?
If the class wants to grow the rules should be tightened but that goes against the development part (bit of a paradox i guess).

Dont start it all over again!

Yeah Tony, Don't start it again.

Its not good for the gang in here to have someone support me. They prefer it if there is only one target...

neverthless, I appreciate that you actually took the time to do the research instead of throwing some rocks in my direction like the rest.