Well, when we actually build test sails we use venture tape and sew the seams.

Seams are much wider than a radial sail but all Maxx/Flex sails have wider seams than radial sails.

Attached is a pic of a sail that we have been using for 3 years now and the mainsheet loads on this boat are the same or higher than a Tornado. Seams are done with venture tape and stitching. no movement yet...I think you can even see the stitching on the vertical mitre seam.

Education continues <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

While we're at it, in your professional opinion and based on your experience with Contender, does a 3DL sail have broadseams?

Nice pic!
Is that the old Maxx 3.0mil? I couldn't help but notice the extra panel up the luff. Most have been running carbon or pentex tapes from head to tack to save weight on the older cloth. Are those soft or medium stiffnes battens? What kind of boat is that on? Who is the carbon spar manufacturer?

3DL? Who cares about that stuff!

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, 3.0 narrow width. The rotated panel in the luff is a much nicer (but harder) way to deal with the luff loads and the even transfer through the sail. The panel right on the luff is a bainbridge cloth, can't remember the name but its mainly uni carbon in a matrix.

I have seen sails with the carbon/pen tapes on the luff and I think the results have been mixed, some look a bit like the early 3DL sails where the fibres were not applied at even tensions and the sail bunched a little at the load points.

Battens are std fibrefoam Tornado, pretty soft, bottom 4 or so would be between 1.0kg up to 1.5kg top battens would be 2.3kg or so.

Boat is a modified Taipan 5.7, Mast is actually moulded off a Taipan 4.9 section and produced by Applied composites in Melbourne Australia.

Macca,

It seems you have learned to argue your case in a more balanced manner.

I guess I will allow myself to be seduced by this new tactic.


With respect to US patent laws. Judges don't award patents, patent agencies do. The judge ruled on the case were the patent agency awarded a patent to North Sails where it had also done to Sobstad earlier for what turned out afterwards to be the same thing. By this example alone, refering to the patent agency for a judgement of "uniqeness" is fallable. Because if they had been dependable in that way then North Sails should never have gotten a patent in the first place. And of course by extension ...

The second argument is that this is all circumstancial. The fact that I wasn't home at the time of some buglary has at most a very weak relation to the likelyhood that I've done some illegal. Patent are also awarded on other ground like a uniqueness in production proces. Example, one can not get a patent on the extruding of aluminium pipe, but one can on say a special new machine to inject the aluminium into the forming die. I have not studied the North Sail patents, but maybe they received the patent on some aspect of the glueing that is vital to the production of these sails instead of the composition of the sails itself.

The third argument is of course that this all doesn't really matter as the shaping of the sail is still being done by giving the panels carefully designed countours which are put back to back and fixated relative to eachother which is known to many people as the procedure of .... Well I think anyone can complete that phrase themselves now.

Of course you can try to find new angles to "proof" the impossible, but it won't change the situation one bit.

3D sails and other similar types like tapedrive from other sailmakers are allowed in the F16 class and are expected to stay that way. With the new 3Dr machine and the fact that many patents expire in the near future the F16 class is perfectly positioned to make full use of these sails.

As such The F16 class will lead the "benchmark" F18 class again.

I see absolutely no gain in removing this promo advantage we'll have with respect to other classes. In fact I say alot of arguments in favour of keeping it.

I write "promo advantage" as a scientist I believe the flying shape of a sail determines the performance and it makes not a dime difference to its shape whether a sail is broadseamed and stitched when folded up or broad seamed and glued on a 3D workbench.





That is a pretty strange argument even from you.

Basically you are now arguing yourself that there is no worthwhile gain to 3D sails. I mean what is 5kg to 5500 kg right ? So we can cross the 20% weight savings from the "advantage" list.





Yes, but reducing the weight of the sails is not linked to a desire to reduce displacement but rather to ease of moving them about; from storage to deck, hoisting them and reducing weight aloft. Everybody knows this.

This was a pretty easy argument to kill, Macca, you really got to do better than that.

Wouter

Before I pull your theory apart and apply practical knowledge to it, can you please answer my question which I have asked directly now more than 3 times:-

Will you agree with North Sails point of view with regards to broad seams in 3DL sails, as referenced by your statement "I think i'll go with North sails on this one" ?

Pretty simple question, requiring a YES or NO answer.

Further: An Olympic class (finn) which has its rules certified by ISAF agrees that there are no seams in a 3DL sail.

So if ISAF are of the opinion that there are no seams in a 3DL sail, are you saying that you know better?

ISAF also agrees that there shouldn't be a multihull in the Olympics !

Are we now looking to them for a touch of sanity ?

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You are getting desperate Macca. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

I think the council decissions are a fair way from the technical/rules staff.

So are you going to agree with North Sails as you stated previously?

But you are also avoiding his question. That would also put this issue to bed.

This thread reminds of a very famous interview that was on the UK TV a few years ago, watch and enjoy <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BklT7Qy07Is

Gareth

There is no point in answering repeatitive questions that have been answered before in many other posts.

The last time it was asked to define the seams in a 3D sail and I answered it in this posting :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...Number=133899&page=&vc=1


The expected reply was again going along the form : "... just a theory ... too long essay ... not reading it ... < then repeating the same question in a new form> "

Typical debating technique

Throw in a tantrum and we have the 3 year old kids version of it.

Therefor I'm not avoiding any questions, I'm just economizing on my answering.


Of course at times it is also mixed with a little :

"Is your wife recovering well from the beating you gave her last week; just answer with a yes or no please"

Which is a typical entrapment technique.

And I'm not falling for that.


Macca has got to play this game a whole lot smarter if he is to come out on top. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Yep, the Youtube clip nailed it!!

Wouter your continual avoidance of my question tells me that you boxed yourself into a corner with your claim that you would "go with North sails on this one" and now you have no way out without loosing your pride.

Trying to discredit an ISAF technical ruling on 3DL sails only further lowers my opinion of your ability to comprehend all matters relating to sail powered vessels.

Its OK to be wrong sometimes <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just suck it like a man and get on with life.

Typical debating technique number 3 : Quoting something out of context.

The phrase part "... go with North sails on this one ..." (notice the correct use of <...>) comes from the following context as quoted in full !




#133215 - Thu Feb 14 2008 01:04 PM : http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...umber=133215&page=0&vc=1

**************************************************************************************************




Okay, exactly which part of [color:"red"] "... Mylar sections joined together with modest shaping ..." [/color] do you not understand ?


You say there is no shaping that way; North sails themselves say there is. I think I'll go with North Sails on this one. Time to admit you have been busted redhanded Macca, again !

Wouter

--------------------
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands


*************************************************************************************************



If anybody is boxed in than it is Macca himself and he has been since, at least, 14 feb 2008.

Wouter

Wouter, this isn't rocket science.
A simple YES or NO will do just fine. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(btw. have you ever admitted to being wrong about anything?)
More Youtube amusement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

OK, then lets make it real simple for you:-

Will you accept an answer as definitive from North Sails as to the use or non use of Broadseams in a 3DL sail?

If the answer is NO:-

Will you accept an answer as definitive from an ISAF technical committee member as to the use or non use of Broadseams in a 3DL sail?

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Ohhh, I'm sorry, what was the question again ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Coffee or Tea? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

No, on the first question as obviously North Sails will be protecting their patent.

No, on the second question as ISAF has not much credibility at all in these matters, they are mostly a political entity with a history of mindboggling rulings.


Wouter

Thanks Tony,

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Do you have popcorn to go with that ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Or maybe some port wine.



I can run circles around Macca even when drunk.

And give everybody an illustrated course on debating techniques at the same time.

Ohhh YEAH !

Wouter

Wouter, If you wont accept ISAF as a ruling body for your class then what will F16 do?? set up your own worldwide governing body?

What will happen when you try to get your class rules certified by ISAF as a step to becoming a certified class?

For somebody who said that I have no credibility you are well on your way to negative cred if thats possible!