| Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress
[Re: PTP]
#132964 02/24/08 10:39 AM 02/24/08 10:39 AM |
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 571 Hamburg Smiths_Cat
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Posts: 571 Hamburg | I would use a FEM code ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_element_method_in_structural_mechanics). For a simple rule of thumb method, I have to know the geometry of the rig. For a beach cat, you could assume to have the weight of crew, helmsman and half boat weight on the shroud, apply a margin of safety of 3...4, then you have a rough idea of the loading. E.g. 2-up beach cat of 100kg weight: (2 x 80 + 50) x 3 = 630 kg. This requires at least a 3mm wire. Keep in mind that a margin of 3 is low, and requires a regular check. Lazy guys could go with a 4mm wire and less regular checking. Cheers, Klaus | | | Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress
[Re: Smiths_Cat]
#132965 02/24/08 09:15 PM 02/24/08 09:15 PM |
Joined: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
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Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay | I would use a FEM code ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_element_method_in_structural_mechanics). For a simple rule of thumb method, I have to know the geometry of the rig. For a beach cat, you could assume to have the weight of crew, helmsman and half boat weight on the shroud, apply a margin of safety of 3...4, then you have a rough idea of the loading. E.g. 2-up beach cat of 100kg weight: (2 x 80 + 50) x 3 = 630 kg. This requires at least a 3mm wire. Keep in mind that a margin of 3 is low, and requires a regular check. Lazy guys could go with a 4mm wire and less regular checking. Cheers, Klaus That load is the vertical component of the shroud's load, which is actually higher. Divide the load by the cosine of the angle between the shroud and the vertical before aplying the safety margin. If the angle is close to 30 degrees the load is close to 15% higher than estimated. The safety factor for steel wires can be smaller than 3 to 4. I guess the high figures avoid the need to calculate dynamic loads, which can be very important.
Luiz
| | | Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress
[Re: PTP]
#132966 02/25/08 03:27 AM 02/25/08 03:27 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | Not that hard at all. Why do you need it ?
Do you actually need it, because this time I hate wasting time on a "what if".
It is high school mechanics and there is no need for finite element approaches.
Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress
[Re: Andinista]
#132968 02/25/08 07:40 AM 02/25/08 07:40 AM | Anonymous
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[Re: ]
#132970 02/25/08 09:19 AM 02/25/08 09:19 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | No, no, no...it's always 5,920.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress
[Re: srm]
#132972 02/25/08 10:01 AM 02/25/08 10:01 AM |
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 351 Santiago, Chile Andinista
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Posts: 351 Santiago, Chile | It's pretty straight forward to approximate the upwind load on the shroud if you only look at the system in two dimensions. When you take into consideration that the shroud actually mounts to the hull slightly aft of the mast base, the calculation becomes trickier because now you are dealing with a system in three dimensions.
But, to get a fairly good approximation, the basic trick is to realize that for the boat at a constant angle of heel (and thus zero rotational acceleration) the righting moment is equal to the heeling moment. So determine the maximum righting moment by multiplying the center of mass of the boat & crew by the horizontal distance of the center of mass from the leeward hull (fulcrum). Then, take this number and divide it by the vertical distance from the mast base to the mast tang. This will give you the horizontal component of the force required to support the mast. Using trigonmetry, you can then determine the force along the shroud based on the horizontal force and the geometry of the shroud connection points. The force along the shroud will be equal to the horizontal component of shroud load divided by the cosine of the angle between the deck and the shroud.
This gives you a rough (but probably fairly accurate) load for the shroud while sailing upwind with no one on the trapeze. Downwind would be a little different because in that case, there is forward load on the mast and also, the bouyancy of the bows adds to the righting moment. This also doesn't take into account "spikes" in the shroud loading that results from sailing over chop/rough conditions.
sm For the shrouds and for the upwind case, I understand that the calculations depend on the boat geometry and weigths, as the weights cancel out the wind forces (thinking 2 dimensions, but it should be a fair approximation). But for the downwind case, I would say that the wind forces are what come to play, and the angle of the shrouds becomes a big amplifier of the force in the forward direction. Similar story for the forestay, it´s the mostly the will wind that determine the stay tension. Which is the worst case? | | | Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress
[Re: Wouter]
#132973 02/25/08 11:36 AM 02/25/08 11:36 AM |
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 571 Hamburg Smiths_Cat
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Posts: 571 Hamburg | Not that hard at all. Why do you need it ? Simply because I am ways faster to do it with FEM than any other method (using FEM does not automatically mean you need 10000 elements). Second reason to do it, is because the next question is "and in the forestay?", and then "down wind?" and then "under spinnaker?".... see the questions here But for the downwind case, I would say that the wind forces are what come to play, and the angle of the shrouds becomes a big amplifier of the force in the forward direction. Similar story for the forestay, it´s the mostly the will wind that determine the stay tension. Which is the worst case? Actually the main sheet tension causes the highest loads in the fore stay (up wind), not the wind. If you sail with spi, then the shrouds can see "peak loads", if you forget to tension the main sheet. The safety factor for steel wires can be smaller than 3 to 4. I guess the high figures avoid the need to calculate dynamic loads, which can be very important. yes and for the not using of cosine law in the simple formula and for fatigue. Cheers, Klaus | | | Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress
[Re: Smiths_Cat]
#132974 02/25/08 12:03 PM 02/25/08 12:03 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC Tornado
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Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC | Hmmm..why not rig up some kind of tension measuring device on the shroud or forestay to actually measure what the cables experience? Some kind of Loos guage could do it or even a strong enough weigh scale.
Mike Dobbs Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
| | | Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress
[Re: srm]
#132976 02/25/08 01:00 PM 02/25/08 01:00 PM |
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,921 Michigan PTP OP
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Posts: 2,921 Michigan | I mainly ask for a rough educated guess based on some science. I haven't taken a math class since jr year high school. The tan, cos, sin stuff seems vaquely familiar but I hated it then so I just assume not try to learn it now <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
if anyone wants to look at this further, the height to the hounds on a 31 is roughly 38 feet or so, beam 22, wt 4000.
I ask because some, on another forum, were saying that the stays on a 31 tri can see up to 20k lbs. This seemed way excessive because the stock 1/4 SS wire stays have a brk str of 7 or 8k lbs. My boat came with 9mm dynex dux synthetic stays which have a breaking strength of 27k lbs. I was mainly curious about what the "safety factor" is to account for some possible unforseen abrasion on the synthetic stays.
Last edited by PTP; 02/25/08 01:01 PM.
| | | Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress
[Re: PTP]
#132979 02/25/08 03:56 PM 02/25/08 03:56 PM |
Joined: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
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Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay | I mainly ask for a rough educated guess based on some science.... My boat came with 9mm dynex dux synthetic stays which have a breaking strength of 27k lbs. I was mainly curious about what the "safety factor" is to account for some possible unforseen abrasion on the synthetic stays. Keep in mind that safe working loads for ropes are 20% of the breaking load, while 50% is a common figure for stainless steel. If you want to know how much excess SF you have, just compare 20% of 9mm Dynex breaking strength with 50% of 8mm SS wire breaking strength. Whatever the results, your splices must be checked for abrasion frequently anyway. Kids may cut the rope, dogs may like their taste, etc. One never knows. If you still have any doubt, just ask directly to Mike Leneman, Eric Precourt or Ian Farrier. They know this stuff well.
Luiz
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