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righting moment relation to shroud stress #132963
02/24/08 10:10 AM
02/24/08 10:10 AM
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Michigan
PTP Offline OP
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For any engineers bored on this sunday....
How would you calculate the stress on a shroud in relation to a boats righting force? Lets assume no one is on the wire and are just sitting on the windward hull. I ask from the perspective of a trimaran.

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Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: PTP] #132964
02/24/08 10:39 AM
02/24/08 10:39 AM
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I would use a FEM code (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_element_method_in_structural_mechanics).
For a simple rule of thumb method, I have to know the geometry of the rig. For a beach cat, you could assume to have the weight of crew, helmsman and half boat weight on the shroud, apply a margin of safety of 3...4, then you have a rough idea of the loading. E.g. 2-up beach cat of 100kg weight: (2 x 80 + 50) x 3 = 630 kg. This requires at least a 3mm wire. Keep in mind that a margin of 3 is low, and requires a regular check. Lazy guys could go with a 4mm wire and less regular checking.

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: Smiths_Cat] #132965
02/24/08 09:15 PM
02/24/08 09:15 PM
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I would use a FEM code (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_element_method_in_structural_mechanics).
For a simple rule of thumb method, I have to know the geometry of the rig. For a beach cat, you could assume to have the weight of crew, helmsman and half boat weight on the shroud, apply a margin of safety of 3...4, then you have a rough idea of the loading. E.g. 2-up beach cat of 100kg weight: (2 x 80 + 50) x 3 = 630 kg. This requires at least a 3mm wire. Keep in mind that a margin of 3 is low, and requires a regular check. Lazy guys could go with a 4mm wire and less regular checking.

Cheers,

Klaus


That load is the vertical component of the shroud's load, which is actually higher.

Divide the load by the cosine of the angle between the shroud and the vertical before aplying the safety margin.
If the angle is close to 30 degrees the load is close to 15% higher than estimated.

The safety factor for steel wires can be smaller than 3 to 4. I guess the high figures avoid the need to calculate dynamic loads, which can be very important.


Luiz
Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: PTP] #132966
02/25/08 03:27 AM
02/25/08 03:27 AM
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Not that hard at all. Why do you need it ?

Do you actually need it, because this time I hate wasting time on a "what if".

It is high school mechanics and there is no need for finite element approaches.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: Wouter] #132967
02/25/08 07:17 AM
02/25/08 07:17 AM
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What about the forestay?

Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: Andinista] #132968
02/25/08 07:40 AM
02/25/08 07:40 AM

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The answer is "8"

Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: ] #132969
02/25/08 08:05 AM
02/25/08 08:05 AM
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It's pretty straight forward to approximate the upwind load on the shroud if you only look at the system in two dimensions. When you take into consideration that the shroud actually mounts to the hull slightly aft of the mast base, the calculation becomes trickier because now you are dealing with a system in three dimensions.

But, to get a fairly good approximation, the basic trick is to realize that for the boat at a constant angle of heel (and thus zero rotational acceleration) the righting moment is equal to the heeling moment. So determine the maximum righting moment by multiplying the center of mass of the boat & crew by the horizontal distance of the center of mass from the leeward hull (fulcrum). Then, take this number and divide it by the vertical distance from the mast base to the mast tang. This will give you the horizontal component of the force required to support the mast. Using trigonmetry, you can then determine the force along the shroud based on the horizontal force and the geometry of the shroud connection points. The force along the shroud will be equal to the horizontal component of shroud load divided by the cosine of the angle between the deck and the shroud.

This gives you a rough (but probably fairly accurate) load for the shroud while sailing upwind with no one on the trapeze. Downwind would be a little different because in that case, there is forward load on the mast and also, the bouyancy of the bows adds to the righting moment. This also doesn't take into account "spikes" in the shroud loading that results from sailing over chop/rough conditions.

sm

Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: ] #132970
02/25/08 09:19 AM
02/25/08 09:19 AM
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The answer is "8"


No, no, no...it's always 5,920.


Jake Kohl
Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: Jake] #132971
02/25/08 09:26 AM
02/25/08 09:26 AM
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You get a decimal when you divide 5920 with 42, which is the ultimate answer to life, the universe and everything, so that can not be it. Representing 5920 in binary is not very pretty either. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: srm] #132972
02/25/08 10:01 AM
02/25/08 10:01 AM
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Santiago, Chile
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Quote
It's pretty straight forward to approximate the upwind load on the shroud if you only look at the system in two dimensions. When you take into consideration that the shroud actually mounts to the hull slightly aft of the mast base, the calculation becomes trickier because now you are dealing with a system in three dimensions.

But, to get a fairly good approximation, the basic trick is to realize that for the boat at a constant angle of heel (and thus zero rotational acceleration) the righting moment is equal to the heeling moment. So determine the maximum righting moment by multiplying the center of mass of the boat & crew by the horizontal distance of the center of mass from the leeward hull (fulcrum). Then, take this number and divide it by the vertical distance from the mast base to the mast tang. This will give you the horizontal component of the force required to support the mast. Using trigonmetry, you can then determine the force along the shroud based on the horizontal force and the geometry of the shroud connection points. The force along the shroud will be equal to the horizontal component of shroud load divided by the cosine of the angle between the deck and the shroud.

This gives you a rough (but probably fairly accurate) load for the shroud while sailing upwind with no one on the trapeze. Downwind would be a little different because in that case, there is forward load on the mast and also, the bouyancy of the bows adds to the righting moment. This also doesn't take into account "spikes" in the shroud loading that results from sailing over chop/rough conditions.

sm


For the shrouds and for the upwind case, I understand that the calculations depend on the boat geometry and weigths, as the weights cancel out the wind forces (thinking 2 dimensions, but it should be a fair approximation). But for the downwind case, I would say that the wind forces are what come to play, and the angle of the shrouds becomes a big amplifier of the force in the forward direction. Similar story for the forestay, it´s the mostly the will wind that determine the stay tension. Which is the worst case?

Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: Wouter] #132973
02/25/08 11:36 AM
02/25/08 11:36 AM
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Not that hard at all. Why do you need it ?

Simply because I am ways faster to do it with FEM than any other method (using FEM does not automatically mean you need 10000 elements). Second reason to do it, is because the next question is "and in the forestay?", and then "down wind?" and then "under spinnaker?".... see the questions here

Quote
But for the downwind case, I would say that the wind forces are what come to play, and the angle of the shrouds becomes a big amplifier of the force in the forward direction. Similar story for the forestay, it´s the mostly the will wind that determine the stay tension. Which is the worst case?

Actually the main sheet tension causes the highest loads in the fore stay (up wind), not the wind. If you sail with spi, then the shrouds can see "peak loads", if you forget to tension the main sheet.

Quote
The safety factor for steel wires can be smaller than 3 to 4. I guess the high figures avoid the need to calculate dynamic loads, which can be very important.

yes and for the not using of cosine law in the simple formula and for fatigue.

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: Smiths_Cat] #132974
02/25/08 12:03 PM
02/25/08 12:03 PM
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Vancouver, BC
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Hmmm..why not rig up some kind of tension measuring device on the shroud or forestay to actually measure what the cables experience? Some kind of Loos guage could do it or even a strong enough weigh scale.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: Tornado] #132975
02/25/08 12:43 PM
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Yes, certainly if you have access to this type of measuring equipment you could go out and take some actual readings. This would give you a very good indication of the shroud load. It really goes back to the question of what do you need this information for? Is it just curiosity as to how one might calculate the loads? Do you need to know down to the last pound, or are you simply looking to see what is the order of magnitude of load on the shrouds- i.e., it's not 50lb and it's not 10,000lb, but it's somewhere in between. Some basic calculations will give you a general idea of the load, probably within a couple hundred pounds.

Another very simple way to get an idea of the load would be to look up the wire spec for the shrouds on your boat. Again, this will give you an order of magnitude for the load.

sm

Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: srm] #132976
02/25/08 01:00 PM
02/25/08 01:00 PM
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I mainly ask for a rough educated guess based on some science. I haven't taken a math class since jr year high school. The tan, cos, sin stuff seems vaquely familiar but I hated it then so I just assume not try to learn it now <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

if anyone wants to look at this further, the height to the hounds on a 31 is roughly 38 feet or so, beam 22, wt 4000.

I ask because some, on another forum, were saying that the stays on a 31 tri can see up to 20k lbs. This seemed way excessive because the stock 1/4 SS wire stays have a brk str of 7 or 8k lbs. My boat came with 9mm dynex dux synthetic stays which have a breaking strength of 27k lbs. I was mainly curious about what the "safety factor" is to account for some possible unforseen abrasion on the synthetic stays.

Last edited by PTP; 02/25/08 01:01 PM.
Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: PTP] #132977
02/25/08 01:50 PM
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By my quick calculation, the shroud would see a little over 5000lb upwind. This is assuming that the shrouds connect to the amas and that the windward ama and main hull are flying just above the water (i.e., all weight on leeward hull) and that there is 500lb of crew weight on the windward hull. Downwind with a big spinnaker up, it may be more, but at least this gives you an order of magnitude.

sm

Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: PTP] #132978
02/25/08 01:58 PM
02/25/08 01:58 PM
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That boat is different to a beach cat...
Maybe the rig is supposed to carry a genua without the main, then the shroud has to take these loads as well. Since the shroud foot point is close to the mast foot (in longitudinal direction) the loading can be high.
However without knowing the "design" wind speed for sailing with a headsail alone, the size of this sail and some other geometric parameterss, I can't make a guess.

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: righting moment relation to shroud stress [Re: PTP] #132979
02/25/08 03:56 PM
02/25/08 03:56 PM
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I mainly ask for a rough educated guess based on some science.... My boat came with 9mm dynex dux synthetic stays which have a breaking strength of 27k lbs. I was mainly curious about what the "safety factor" is to account for some possible unforseen abrasion on the synthetic stays.



Keep in mind that safe working loads for ropes are 20% of the breaking load, while 50% is a common figure for stainless steel. If you want to know how much excess SF you have, just compare 20% of 9mm Dynex breaking strength with 50% of 8mm SS wire breaking strength.

Whatever the results, your splices must be checked for abrasion frequently anyway. Kids may cut the rope, dogs may like their taste, etc. One never knows.

If you still have any doubt, just ask directly to Mike Leneman, Eric Precourt or Ian Farrier. They know this stuff well.


Luiz

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