How about on the F16 forum? If I file a complaint with US Sailing, I'd like to be certain of my grounds.

Someone has to test the effect of the changes to equipment. Why not let the people who know something about it test it and measure the differential? I certainly wouldn't know enough to give a valid measurement.

I personally think the F17 class/NACRA is doing a good job of implementing this change in a measured way. The end result is that cost of building boats will be reduced (standardization of mast section, less carbon). I do not think they are doing it to make the new boats noticeably faster (total surface area of mast and sails are equal, or at least very close) – in fact they are being certain to NOT obsolete the current fleet. It is a very tough decision to introduce changes in any One Design boat – they will be criticized if they never update the boat, they will be criticized if they update the boat too often and they will be criticized if they release a similar design (that includes the latest technology) that obsoletes an existing boat. Tough decisions.

Let it go. Change within a class is left up to its class memers and manufacturer(s) (didn't we just debate this). Let them deal with it.

Let it go <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />! Ok! But, it's a mistake.

Any numbers? Any more carnage? Sounds like it was very challenging.

Some racing details. I cannot comment on many of the races, as I was not actually in a lot of them…… This is my recollection and should be pretty accurate. Please correct me if I make a mistake.

Saturday was COLD and WINDY, at least for a Southern US recreational sailor. Easy double trap and max-depower kind of day. Good news was that the sea state was minimal as the wind was coming from the NW or NNW and we were sailing in protected waters.

Two Fleets: N20 fleet with 10+ (I think) boats and Open fleet with 13 boats (4 F18s: 2 Infusions, 1 NACRA F18 and 1 Hobie Tiger, 4 F17s, 4 F16s: all Blades and 1 H17).

Pre-Race: One Blade (sail7seas) broke a rudder while moving the boat on the beach. They were fully rigged, dressed and ready to push off the beach – one rudder got caught in the sand and broke. Not a good omen.

Race 1: I was late setting up and leaving the beach, so I missed the start. A lot of boats missed the start in both fleets. Tback missed it, too so we sailed around and bobbed for an hour. Did I say it was cold and windy…… I don’t know any details about this race, as I was trying to stay warm. I couldn’t even tell you started it. PTP was the only F16 in it.

Prior to race 2 and after race 1: The US Coast Guard boarded the RC boat. They got a 911 call from a passer-by that a boat was sinking. A few boats did turn over, but none were sinking. They then wanted to make sure the RC had all the appropriate documentation on safety, etc. Another 20 minutes to wait and shiver. Adjust race course to more westerly direction. Another 10 minutes or more.

Race 2: A, C-gate, A, C-gate, Finish. Still cold and still windy. The 2 F18 Infusions were pretty fast and got out front pretty quickly followed by an F17 (I am not entirely sure about the positions of 2nd F18 and the first F17, they could be reversed). PTP had a good start and looked to be moving pretty good. Halfway to the windward mark his starboard hull cracked open - double trap, high wind, high loads (?). He was done for the weekend and limped back to shore. A small gap behind the first F17 (sometimes no gap at all) and there were 2 F16s and 2 F17s followed by another F18 (Tiger), then the H17. I could not keep up with the NACRA F18 was and am unsure where they finished in the fleet. They could have been out front, in back or on the beach. I don’t know. We had some really close racing between the F16s and F17s. The F17s pointed higher but we always seemed to converge on A mark at the same time, maybe we carried more speed to offset the extra distance sailed. The second trip to the leeward gate had F16, F17, F16, F17 all on starboard heading into the gate. Big puff came through + everyone was eeking out as much speed as possible = 2 capsizes. One F16 and F17 capsized just a few seconds before dousing their spinnakers. I got through the gate first in this group followed closely by an F17. He sailed a better Gate-to-Finsh and beat me across the line. Elapsed finishes that I can recall: F18, F18 or F17, F17 or F18, F17, F16……… I didn’t watch the rest finishes as I was disappointed in my performance on the last leg and I was pretty cold.

Race 3: A, C-gate, A, C-gate, Finish. Still cold and still windy. The forecast called for diminishing winds throughout the day – but it didn’t happen. Same story as Race 2. The Layline F18 got out quickly. This time the 2nd F18 Infusion and the lead F17 were included in the fray with the pack. Close racing to A, close racing to the Gate. This allowed me (yes, me of all people) to be the second boat through the gate (1st boat was the Layline F18). Forgive my giddiness, but it was a big moment for me – as the last time I sailed was in October. There was an F17 right on my sterns. The second F18 Infusion bailed at the gate as there was no room for him to pass. I quickly screwed up my upwind leg and ran aground while the fleet passed me by. One F17 was working up the left-middle and got in some traffic with the N20s coming back downwind. One N20 did not see the F17, gybed and t-boned the F17 at speed. Big hole and cracked deck between the main beam and side stay. Big impact from the damage I saw. Complete accident and luckily no one was hurt. Capsize by an F16 back downwind and a spin problem on an F17 allowed me to get back in the race. Elapsed finishes: F18, F18, F16, F17, F16/F17, F17/F16, F18, H17. Again I do not know where the other NACRA F18 finished and I didn’t pay much attention to who finished after me. I would assume the F17 corrected out over me on handicap.

Sunday was supposed to be warmer and 5 to 10 mph winds. Wrong. It was COLD and WINDY, again. The wind had shifted around and the sea state was bumpier and it was definitely colder – just as windy.

Races 4 and 5: I was a little late leaving the beach and was adjusting all the final control lines and watching for the N20 start (Open Fleet was the second start on Saturday). Well, lo and behold they started Open Fleet first and I missed it. I didn’t even realize it until the N20s started. By that time, I was fairly pissed off and went to the beach to watch the races. I had good intentions of sailing race 5, but the longer I sat on the beach in the cold wind, the more I dreaded it. I finally canned the weekend, put the boat on the trailer and moved on. TBack and Sail7Seas (borrowed a rudder from PTP) sailed both races in some pretty tough conditions. I do not know the order of finishes, except the Layline F18 was out front again. Overall, about half the boats from each fleet did not sail on Sunday – some due to break down and some due to desire (I guess).

I think there was some pretty tight racing between the 1-up F16s and the F17s (and some F18s mixed in). Lots of positions trading back and forth. It comes down to boat handling/skill of the sailor. I certainly felt out of control and felt my tacking/gibing/roundings were particularly bad. I do feel that the F16 is quicker, but I failed to deliver the skill to reach its potential. I had some good runs and I had some pitiful moments, too. Consistency takes practice.

The F17s did very well taking 2 of the top 3 spots in Open Fleet. 2 of them sailed every race. Good job by them.

Thanks for the report. I don't know how you remember all that stuff!

Hope you're thawed out by now!

Good posting by Tshan about the nacra F17's; indeed that class had to do something and it seems this is the only right way to go about it. Got to respect that.

Wouter

I'd like to see more disclosure. If you're being sponsored by a factory, just say so.

Pete,

why dont we start a new thread on that topic. When are you a professional and what do others feel about competing with them on the racecourse. Fair or not?

This is totally ridiculous! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

No, I'm done with the whole thing.

I just started a thread on it on the open forum.
Why is it ridiculous? I think it is an interesting topic as long as we dont get personal.

Why would you not want to race against the best?

Tom

Tom,

happy to discuss it in the thread on the open forum.

$. Testing skill is one thing. Trying to keep up an equipment arms race with a factory is another.

If you represent a factory just say so. I'll run what I brung, and keep my wallet in my pocket.

If you're an amateur and a friend, I have an obligation to stay current with developement so the competition is a test of skill, not equipement

I for one am thrilled to see the F16's and nacra F17's go head to head.

The cat racing scene is too small to all lock ourselves away on our own little islands anyway.

Much better to just join fleets, have a good time and learn from eachother !

With respect to Tikipete. BC is not sailing a factory supplied F16 so I don't really see how he has any obligations to us as F16 sailors. So he brought a new design to the fray, good for him !

He won the event ? Well, did any of us expect anything other then that from BC ? He is a very good sailor; as we all know very well.

Wouter

Unfortunately, it was BC that got hit by the N20 - but he was on his way to winning the regatta before the accident. He missed races 3, 4 and 5 due to a gapping hole in his port hull. It is somewhat amazing that no one got hurt. The top three in Open Fleet were (I THINK I have the order correct):

1. F17 (Schwall)
2. F18 (Lennard/Krantz)
3. F17 (Teets)

Good quote: "The cat racing scene is too small to all lock ourselves away on our own little islands anyway. Much better to just join fleets, have a good time and learn from each other !"

On my way home from Pensacola yesterday, I saw a tiny rural church (Flomaton, AL) with these words on the sign out front: "Hate hurts the hater more than the hated."

Consider golf for a moment. If a professional is paid to endorse a particular brand of club, that's one thing. But if the same professional criticizes another brand without disclosing his ties to the first, that in IMO is deceit.

If you represent a product, just say so. I'll add my own grain of salt.

Having all the formula boats sail together, IMO, is fantastic. But, it's portsmouth racing. That sends some people into a rage. At least one person of my acquaintance has said he will quit the sport rather than race portsmouth. So, as with most things, there are both good and bad points.

Just because different classes start together does not mean they are racing against each other on Portsmouth. If you have, say, three different one-design and/or formula classes starting in the same start, if each of those classes has enough boats to be considered a "class" for the racing and scoring purposes, they are all going to be scored as one-design in their own classes. Right? So what's the problem?

If there is an open Portsmouth class starting in the same group, they will be scored on Portsmouth. Right? So what's the problem?

For me? None.

Karma is a bitchthing