Wouter (and all)-
<br>I noted in the rules under "Required equipment" that both a tow line and a righting "line" are required. I think we should amend this to allow righting poles, especially in light of the fact that Isotopes come standard with righting poles (and to my knowledge do not carry lines as backup). Since we require a towing line on ALL boats, this could serve as a "backup" righting line for boats equipped with a righting pole (or "Other acceptable righting system"??).
<br>
<br>What do you all think?
<br>
<br>Kirt Simmons<br><br>Kirt Simmons
<br>Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48

Folks,
<br>Just wondering why we need a tow line?
<br>
<br>Rescue boats carry tow lines and when we need to tow a line of boats we just unthread our mainsheets.
<br>
<br><br><br>

Kirt and Phill,
<br>
<br>The rules are a perfect copy of the F18 rules in this respect. But I think that our case asks for a different wording so that it also allows other means of righting the boat to replace the righting methode with a righting line.
<br>
<br>Phill, the tow line on board rule is, again, and exact copy of the F18 rules, I don't really know why it is in the rules exactly but their must be a reason for it. Ofcourse as phil said we can unthread our halyards and mainsheet but I know I will have problems doing this in spring because of the cold water. With numb hands it could proof to be difficult. Does aqnyone know what the ISAF rules say about this, maybe it comes from there.
<br>
<br>Anyways about leaving it off or on I put it too you :
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>And I would like to see rewording of the rightingline rule. Any suggestions ?
<br>
<br>Wouter
<br><br><br>

Wouter,
<br>How about something like:
<br>
<br>"Each boat must have a suitable means of being righted by its crew in the event of a capsise."
<br>
<br>That way it's up to the crew to decide what they are going to use as a suitable means. Having a righting line may be a waste of line if the crew isn't heavy enough to right the boat with it. In this case they would also be required to carry additional assistance, bag, pole, whatever as long as it made it possible for the crew to right the boat.<br><br>

Leave it up to the crews and race officials..
<br>
<br>My club safety boat carries and requests any towed boat uses their ropes.. So carrying a rope which would not be used seems a tad strange.. If the race commitee requested a rope be carried no prob.. But why carry something that wont be used?
<br>
<br>As for righting .. leave it to the crews.. <br><br>

Phill said :
<br>
<br>"Each boat must have a suitable means of being righted by its crew in the event of a capsise."
<br>
<br>Yes, can we leave the part "in event of capsize" out ? Otherwise they can say we didn't capsize but pitchpole and went turtle. How about :
<br>
<br>"Each boat must have a suitable means of being righted by its crew". The F16HP authority shall be the judge with respect to what is suitable and what isn't and with "crew" is meant the skipper in the 1-up configuration.
<br>
<br>Currently accepted methodes are :
<br>
<br>-1- a non slippery righting line of min. 10 mm diameter and min. length of 4 mtr.
<br>-2- a rightingpole bla bla bla (min length and way of fixing)
<br>
<br>(end quote)
<br>
<br>I would like to see a little more strikt wording to avoid long and damaging arguments about righting systems.
<br>
<br>How about it ?
<br>
<br>Wouter
<br>
<br><br><br>

Wouter,
<br>If you like the words can be more strict.
<br>
<br>However all aguments cease when you say "OK, go out and capsize the boat and demonstrate righting it". If it comes up they are OK if not they have a problem.
<br>
<br>
<br>All in all, I think it's better to put the responsibility back onto the skipper. If the F16HP association approves a specific method then aren't they responsible if it doesn't work?
<br>
<br>Then the argument begins for real!
<br>
<br>
<br>Phill
<br>
<br>Phill <br><br>

How about:
<br>"Each boat must be equipped with a suitable righting system allowing the boat to be righted by the racing crew without outside assistance. Crews may be asked to demonstrate their ability to right their boat by the F16 HP authority if reasonable questions about the suitablility of the righting system are raised."
<br>That's "stricter" but still leaves the primary responsibility up to the "crew" while allowing "proof" if deemed necessary.
<br>
<br>Kirt<br><br>Kirt Simmons
<br>Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48

I've changed the wording to :
<br>
<br>
<br>RIGHTING
<br>
<br>Each boat must be equipped with a suitable righting system allowing
<br>the boat to be righted by the crew without outside assistance with respect
<br>to all the sailing conditions that can be encountered.
<br>
<br>A particular boat and crew combination may only participate in a
<br>race or sailing event when the crew sailing the boat is considered
<br>to be able to right the boat unaided by the F16 HP authority or
<br>the acting authority when the first is absent.
<br>
<br>Crews may be asked to demonstrate their ability to right their boat by
<br>the F16 HP authority.
<br>
<br>
<br>**************
<br>
<br>I've added the last paragraph to give the event committee explicit rights to enforce this rule. And because the first rule is mainly directed to designers which may design a boat for a crew weight of 160 kg's. It is not certain that a 130 kg's is than able to right the boat in all conditions. In the last situation, the light crew mayb claim that the means to right the boat are there and overlook the fact that they need to be able to operate it successfully
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

SAFETY EQUIPMENT
<br>
<br>Minimum mandatory equipment to be on board :
<br>
<br>One lifejacket conforming to the rules in force per
<br>person and which are being worn during sailing.
<br>
<br>One distress whistle per person; fitted to the lifejacket.
<br>
<br>At least one knife, suitable to cut the lines found on board.
<br>
<br>The organizers of an event may require participants to carry
<br>additional safety equipement such as towlines and compasses
<br>when the conditions warrant this..
<br>
<br>*************************
<br>
<br>The reasons why the towline is included in the F18 rules is that the class originated in France and they often sail in big bays where boats somethimes have to sail for 1,5 hours to get to the startline. Alot of thermal wind which can drop in the late afternoon / evenings. Undoing the halyards etc. proved to eb cumbersome. Now to impact everybody the same the rule to carry a min. towline was put in the rules.
<br>
<br>All in agreement on the new wording ?
<br><br><br>

Wouter-
<br>
<br>I would just reword slightly-
<br>
<br>One lifejacket per
<br>person, worn during sailing, and conforming to the rules of the local authority.
<br>
<br>One distress whistle per person; fitted to the lifejacket.
<br>
<br>At least one knife, suitable to cut the lines found on board.
<br>
<br>In addition, the organizers of an event may require participants to carry additional safety equipment (such as towlines, compasses, throwable flotation devices, paddles, etc.).
<br>
<br>Kirt
<br>
<br><br><br>Kirt Simmons
<br>Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48

Ok Im confused.......
<br>
<br>I can't sail here from any club without lifejackets (for each person on board).. Its part of the clubs duty of care safety rules.. Also part of AYF rules of racing.. Class of floatation device IS specified..
<br>
<br>Some way to attach a towing line in case of serious problem with the boat or crew.. Club and I believe AYF racing rule requirement..
<br>
<br>In general those who sail offshore have a list of required (yes legal penalties apply if not carried) safety items.. On the river in my normal winds Im not sure anyone would hear a whistle.. But then its only 2 miles across and one could just wait to be blown ashore..
<br>
<br>Given these already strong race requirements.. Why do we need to duplicate these items rules in a set of class rules?????????????? <br><br>

Stewart-
<br>Remember, we are trying to write rules that will be applicable Internationally.
<br>I certainly appreciate there may be some redundancy but that redundancy will vary between Nationalities, regions or even Yacht Clubs or specific regattas. We are trying to make certain that at least a minimum of safety equipment will be carried on all F16 HP boats regardless of where they may be sailed so if the Worlds are held in Australia, for example, it will be "No big deal" to be carrying these items since everyone will have been carrying them all along. Here in the US lifejackets must be ON all boats, for instance, but NOT necessarily worn at all locals, races. etc.
<br>Did that help unconfuse you?
<br>
<br>Kirt<br><br>Kirt Simmons
<br>Taipan #159, "A" cat US 48

First, I gives the class authority means to penalize offenders otherwise only your AYF can
<br>
<br>Secondly, what is AYP anyway, I never heard of it. And any event not sailed under the flag of AYF will not be bound by these rules. Now all F16HP events are bound by the rules in this framework.
<br>
<br>Thirdly, Towing is out of rules and is left to the local club or event organisers. Flotation requirement is copied from ISAF and is intended to make sure that builders make their boats with flotation before they can sell it as a true F16HP and not call it a F16HP and that the buyer afterwards find it has to modify the design to be able to race. Not good for PR that would be. It's double but makes it very clear
<br>
<br>Forthly, the whistle is also there to be used to prevent being run over. Whistle is always louder than shouting. Ever stepped of the boat right after the start ? Your shouting will blend in the startline shouting, a whistle saved my life, that daggerboard came quite close. And why object to a small whistle is weight 10 grams ? Its better to require it at all times
<br>
<br>And once agian putting (copying) these rule in the framework gives the class authority a basis to penalized offenders. Without it the class organisation can't
<br>
<br>Wouter
<br><br><br>

SAFETY EQUIPMENT
<br>
<br>Minimum mandatory equipment to be on board :
<br>
<br>One lifejacket per person, worn during sailing, and
<br>conforming to the rules of the local authority.
<br>
<br>One distress whistle per person; fitted to the lifejacket.
<br>
<br>At least one knife, suitable to cut the lines found on board.
<br>
<br>In addition, the organizers of an event may require all
<br>participants to carry additional safety equipment. (equipment
<br>such as towlines, compasses, paddles, etc).
<br>
<br>
<br>All others in agreement ?
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>Wouter
<br>
<br><br><br>

Australian Yachting Federation.. all clubs and classes must use them.. If a sailor competes in a non AYF race he/she loses AYF staus and thus ineligable for any AYF sponsored race.. ie local club racing, national and all international events..
<br>
<br>Also go out without re required safety items and see how long you before someone rips open a red flag.. (not that its needed now).. My guess it 1 second after the 10 minute gun..<br><br>

Then you are well covered in Aus. sadly rest of world is less well organized. I know that in NL it is required to have it on board but the penalties are no where near as drastic as you describe them.
<br>
<br>So I feel that copying them in the F16HP rules is a wise precaution and useful.
<br>
<br>BTW : you still have the 10 minute gun ? =)
<br>
<br>Steward, what cat are you sailing ? Or are you a dinghy man that likes this cat forum as "a bit othe side" ?
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

My vote is in and I choose "... rewording ... ". The rewording seems to be done already and I'm satisfied with that.
<br>
<br>Anonimous4<br><br>

I have a few boats.. one is an Auscat "A"..
<br>Its my personal boat for when I dont have a crew.. Easy to rig light fast and relatively forgiving..
<br>
<br>Ok so if in NL your not required to use PBA when racing.. Is it because its thought they arent needed? Or do every class have to arrange their own safety issues???? Looks like your clubs and national sailing bodies are asking for a day in court..
<br>Since I would probaly be the only 16 here .. I would sail with the club safety and disregard the 16 rules..<br><br>

Aahhh, it's not that balck and white Steward. We have two competing organisations here in NL and ofcourse the goverment and counties. Not as clear cut as your Aus organisation.
<br>
<br>Our club will loose it's permit when a fatality occurs. The NFB, the organisation to which my club belongs requires all crews to have safety equipment on board (and PBA's being worn at all times) when sailing in event organised under their flag which very often includes the local clubraces. However if I were to get a private permit from the goverment than I'm not bound by the NFB rules and only by the class rules when I would organize a race. Luckily the catsailor who were boycotted by the other organisationin the past have organised themselfs and are very keen on enforcing safety issues.
<br>
<br>Kirt also indicated that sometimes the rules are open for multiple interpretation. Like having lifejackets on board but not having to wear them. Redefining them in the class rule would help preventing this.
<br>
<br>I totally agree with you on your court remark and so I rather be boring by repeating safety rules than sorry afterwards.
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<br>And yes, we probably could so without in most countries because of local laws, it's redundant but wise to keep it in the rules just for those exceptions to the common rule.
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>