Guess it is back to wooden boats. BTW do not use the candle lanterns in your car, even if you have the windows partly open.

Seems like a lot of people believe we should not even try to change, becouse it is so bothersome. I think this is part of the reason so many choose to believe the relatively few scientists going against the commonly accepted theories on what is happening just now.
It is interesting to see how little interest there is in trying to understand the "other side". It is also interesting to see how opinions differ from country to country. You in the USA seem to be more opposed to global warming and CO2 theories than others. We also have some people sharing your point of view here in Norway, mostly on the far right side politically. I think it is fair to say that the USA politically is to the right of Norway, so perhaps what we choose to believe is a political matter. Whoose propaganda do you choose to believe, or rather who are telling the thruth and who are running propaganda shows.. When enough studies are released and 98% of them comes to the same conclusion, I think it is a pretty good indicator.

I had a look at the "hockey stick" graph and I think the author is very much right in his critique. However a 1000 years are not a long time in a geological perspective.
I dont think anybody are going to deny that earth have been both very much warmer and very much colder than today? It took nature a very long time to produce and process all the CO2 leading to these varmer and colder periods so the cycle took many, many thousands of years. In the 100 years since the industrial revelution, we have burnt about half of the earths liquid oil and released the same amount of CO2 into the atmosphere. Considering that oil really is captured sunlight, nurturing living organisms producing CO2, which died and was through time turned into oil by capturing CO2, heat, pressure etc., we are spending stored sunlight. Burning this "stored sunlight" we release the CO2 which was captured back then. We know CO2 in the atmosphere will raise the temperature, so we are helping the CO2 cycle along. The remaining question is why the organisms which today is oil died, at the same time, in a geological timeframe.. Nature needs thousands and thousands of years to produce the amount of CO2 we humans have released in a hundred years, do the math and the picture is pretty clear to me.


And nothing wrong with that. We are building ourself Blade F16s in wood just now. Expect them to last longer than a foam/glass sandwich..
As long as you dont burn hydrocarbons, like in an engine, the CO2 is not released into the atmosphere. Need to find other materials for glues and fibers when we run out of oil, but we can do that.

Hi Rolf (and others),

This will be the last time I bump this topic up, as I really should be re-stitching my tramp etc. in preparation for the ice to come off the lake.

If you liked the hockey stick article, the author co-wrote a book called "Taken By Storm - The Troubled Science, Policy and Politics of Global Warming". Highly recommended reading, whether you agree with their connclusions or not. I laughed out loud repeatedly throughout the book.

I would challenge anyone to read this book all the way through, and then come back and express support for Kyoto or Kyoto-like treaties.

Cheers,
Al

Ps. They do address your carbon dioxide argument above in the chapter "Flat Beer".

Oh, I was going to add "not that we shouldn't be conserving wildlife habitat and minimizing waste in a reasonable manner". After all, that's why we sail vs. owning a PWC, right?

Rolf, I'll admit that I'm a "right leaner" in my beliefs, HOWEVER that has NO bearing on my beliefs with regards to climate change. What does cause me to think the way I do is my education as an engineer. I didn't take what the IPPC said and just run with it. I read it, digested it and for me 1+1 didn't equal 2. After MUCH more (and continued) reading on the subject it became VERY apparent to me that we we're being fleeced. Sadly there are a LOT of sheep here in this country but there are also a lot of us that don't follow the crowd and prefer to form our own decisions. That is the reason that a lot of people here don't believe, we've read and formed opinions based on scientific facts.

I don't want to talk too much about the science, however simply put the data does NOT support man made change. All the data shows that CO2 LAGS temperature, i.e. temp goes up and CO2 goes up after the fact. Here's the science behind that... Solar activity increase, planets in the solar system warm (check out the data a/b mars warming). Since the solubility of gases in liquids decreases as temp increases, more gas comes out of solution, hence CO2 concentrations rise. Now we HAVE contributed to that rise, however the single largest repository for CO2 on the planet is (drum roll please) THE OCEAN. More CO2 goes into/out of the ocean than any other source or sink. There are way too many holes in the THEORY of anthropological GW for it to hold much water. The mathematical impropriety of the hockey stick graph really chaps my butt.... How can you do what he did with regards to that data and be as widely accepted as it WAS???? [censored]

I don't doubt that pollution contributes to gw. But I am increasingly skeptical of the degree. Your point about the relationship to the solubility of gases and temperature is well taken. It is difficult for me to apply things learned in a high school chemistry lab. to the entire planet. Thank you.

Clean must be better than dirty, else why would we bother to bathe? If carbon credits can't be implemented, http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120796372237309757.html?mod=hpp_us_inside_today, then we need to clean things up at the source of pollution.

GW aside, I like my fish without mercury or tumors.

If we didn't bathe, we wouldn't be putting all that dirt into what ultimately is our water supply system. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
And think about it: We are washing off lots of skin cells and bodily fluids, so we are creating literally a "soup" of commingled DNA. If somebody took a sample of that wastewater, I wonder what kind of creature they could create in a test tube. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Hmmm, now that I think about it, maybe that's how God came up with human beings. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Mary, that sounds like something for "Mythbusters!"

No, that sounds like ridicule..

Rolf, are you saying that I am ridiculing something?
On the contrary, I was just rationalizing for not bathing very often, because thereby I am not contributing to pollution of the environment. Every time I take a bath or a shower I feel guilty. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Jeez..

In many parts of the world, and even many parts of the United States, water is a more precious (and important) commodity even than oil.

Many of the places we have lived have relied upon wells for water and septic tanks for sewage. So we have learned to be very careful about how much we take in and how much we put out.

Too much information, Mary <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Bored, pot stirring!

Hey, if you have lived on a boat or in a motorhome, you know what it's all about. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Mary, you are absolutely right.
I've lived on a boat for a few years and the amount of water we used then was so little compared to what i use in my home today (daily shower, dishwasher, washing machine, etc).
Although I am very fond of my daily shower (and so are my colleagues!) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I do not always think it is good for the body, in fact I remember one sailor (Mike Golding) say that if you go without washing your hair for a few days it restores all the natural oils that shampoo "destroys".

I didn't wash my hair for a week once. I rinsed, but used no soap to test that theory. I didn't like the result. It felt gross, but I'm also OCD type that washes his hands all the time, and showers at least once a day.

don't joke about what goes down the drain. There IS evidence that the medicines we take end up in surface water and impact wild life.

Now, back to the topic at hand.

I was just reading an article a/b GW and had this thought. What if we were in a significant cooling period and CO2 was going up? Say the current C02 warms argument never happened. Would we see scientists and politicians out there rationalizing how CO2 COOLS the planet?