The Bic O'Pen is I think the best alternative to the Optimist if you don't have an Optimist program locally or your kid does not like Optimists. We have both at our club and when it is windy, it's the kids on the Bic's who are having the most fun because the boat is self rescuing, very easy to right, and self bailing. It's also faster and looks cooler. You can run into a dock and not hurt it.

Not knocking the Optimist but it's long in the tooth and the Bic is a refreshing alternate. The same thing is happening with the 29er versus 420. The 29er is faster, cooler, and can be sailed with a wider weight range but it is more expensive.

I like the F12 designs too, but I thought the Wave was going to fill the gap and be the cat equivelent of the Laser 4.7 for kids coming out of the Opti.

Back when the Wave first came out, (1996?) Sail Magazine did a test with lots of kids and some small new mono dinghys, and a Wave. All the kids said they liked the Wave better than any of the mono dinghys for two reasons: 1. It was faster and they could maybe fly a hull. 2. They had room to bring a friend or two.

My kids hated the Opti I bought them because there was no room for another kid. I traded it to another Dad for a Hobie 14, added the trap wire and the kids would sail it two up, but it was hard for them to tack. So I taught them to only jibe it when they wanted to turn around and sail home.

I think a new Wave is pretty expensive these days even by new, full race $3,000+ Opti standards. I saw one for sale on my lake a while back, it was fairly, had the backrests, trailor, etc. the guy wanted $4,500 for it! He said he paid $6,000 for it! OUCH! For a Wave? Can that be right, with the trailor and backrests?

The fact that you can put an Opti on top of a Volvo wagon or BMW is what sells them more than the Wave I think, oh, and they have a great world wide organizatoin and most USA yacht clubs use them for their junior programs vs. a Wave.

I have great memories sailing Optimists when I was 11. Pure fun, particularly in company of other friends of the same age, on more Optimists. Sailing monohulls is great too, they have a unique mystic, my best sailing memories are on monohulls. And I certainly enjoy cat sailing. But why the pointless comparisons? the kind of boat is not what makes the real difference.

We're cat sailors, not mono sailors, so naturally, we want our kids to sail cats.

But, it's hard to beat this (from Scuttlebutt):

The Garda Easter Meeting, already in the record books as the biggest single-Optimist Class event in the world, has this year moved up several gears to record an entry of 999 Optimists from 29 countries. The logistics are incredible. Three race courses run five simultaneous races, three for the 866 under-16 "Juniors" and two with shorter races for the 133 11- and 12-year old "Cadets". As well as the three race-committee teams, over 200 support boats, each because of local law with a qualified driver and tightly controlled crew, are involved. --
http://lakegardameeting.fragliavelariva.it/

It's one of the many reasons I race a Hobie 16 although I've surpassed the weight limit years ago. There's power in numbers...

Mike

Nope, it's fixed on the starboard side. You learn to sail assymetrically on different tacks.

I have seen a sabot with a dagger; two different classes?

Yes, there is power in numbers. Wonder how the kids who finished in the lower third on the scoresheet felt.
The more I think about it, the more I think the focus on racing and competition is a major reason for the large numbers of opti sailors who quits sailing.

I have never sailed an opti, so I will probably never be as good at sailing as those who started in optis will be.. Logical? No, marketspeak! It doesnt matter if you start out in an opti, a bathtub or a Melges24. Time in the boat matters to develop skills, not what kind of boat it is.
I have seen the scared kids unable to control the opti and being very alone, so I firmly believe a beginners boat should be able to be sailed two-up or three up.
A cat is the perfect fun boat for sailing, cruising, fooling around and bathing for the kids. I think the opti is so succesful becouse it have "critical mass" and "everybody else" are using them. Not becouse of the qualities of the boat.
A new Opti costs more than a rotomoulded F12 I was quoted..

When I taught sailing about 8 years ago we had some lasers and some optis. The optis sat most of the time unused because the kids (most age 9-12) preferred to go 3 per a laser rather than get in the slow optis. The only good thing about an opti is that you don't have to convince the kids to stop capsizing for fun. The optis are also a pain if you have any current because they are not powerful enough to fight it, especially for an inexperienced sailor who might blow a tack or two.

Kids enjoyed racing but by far a trip to a sandy shore a mile or two away (which ends up as a competition to see who can get to shore first) to have lunch was the favorite activity.

I'm totally biased, but in the US we should be promoting the heck out of Hobie Waves. Not so much in the rest of the world, they have differing choices.

Optis are either boring or scary depending on the kid's view of the world and definitely slow and stupid looking.

Not that a Wave is especially sleek-looking, but it beats the heck out of an Opti on looks.

And I'm going to reiterate the point that kids like to be social and sail together. There's a small percentage of kids who actually want to be by themselves.

We've had a crew of 3 kids, none of which was over the age of 7, sail a Wave with good competency (they weren't the boat in the fleet of 10 I was keeping an eye on).

Nothing is going to change the system the Opti has, but we can certainly offer an alternative to it that has greater appeal to the kids at large these days.

The opti system is all about individual competitiveness. There's a time and place for that for some kids. There are a heckuva lot more kids who aren't into that system, but they are forced into it by their parents.

In addtition to the OpenBic, which I've seen, Bic Sports is floating an "un-regatta" event theme with their sailboards, and kids like the format. I haven't seen an "un-regatta" first hand, but I can appreciate how well received it probably is.

The Wave is not as affordable as an Opti, but it is no more difficult to tote around. Get a lightweight trailer and throw it on there in one piece. Forget lifting a heavy boat over your head to put it on top of a car.

I'm a girl and I can trailer and un-trailer a Wave by myself. Cartopping is out of the question for me. How in the heck would I lift an Opti or anything else onto the top of my car without assistance?

Shop around and you can pick up a perfectly good Wave for anywhere from $1K - $2.5K

I've always thought the best way to sell Waves would be to bring several to a big Opti regatta and allow the Opti kids to try them. The kids already know how to sail, so it should be a quick transition for them. Of course, the event organizers might not be too happy if you showed up with 5 Waves for a quick race after the Optis hit the beach, but hey...they don't like us already!

Like this? http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/fast&fun.htm
The program is still alive in Seattle. Meeting with the City of Kirkland today. "A Day on the Lake" will be held June 14, at Marina Park in Kirkland on Lake Washington. Program will include "Fast and Fun" six Waves from Sail Sand Point. Also kayaking, Parasailing, and Heart of Sailing Foundation, a program that introduces sailing to children with developmental disabilities. We hope to also get them out on the Waves. Volunteer Cat Sailors will be on the Waves to help out, and get the kids on the tiller.

Caleb Tarleton
Sail Sand Point, Seattle, WA
with programs also at Houghton Beach Kirkland and Mercer Island this year.

Just to set things straight: I don't hate mono hulls any more than the next cat sailor ;-) My Opti-killer sub-title was meant as a joke. The point was that I would like to know if there is a cat that is : cheap, light and easy for a couple of kids. I'll definitely keep an eye on the F12 in this respect. (Waves are very rare in Europe though I think they would be almost ideal).

I have sailed mono hulls almost exclusively 'till almost two years ago. OTOH, maybe its like giving up smoking, the quitters themselves often turn into the most militant anti-smoking activists...

I just think Opti's are boxy, slow and ugly. I actually like lasers very much, so I certainly don't just hate all monohulls.

I'd love for my son and daughter to be able to blast across the surface the way only cats and surfboards really can.
Whenever I see kids in Opti's I get the impression they are either working hard or fighting (in any significant wind), kids on cats always just seem to be having fun! More like dancing than fighting. Besides cat sailing is certainly more socially engaging for kids because they hardly ever sail alone.

I guess there's really no substitute for the Optimist as a learner boat at the moment. When the time comes I'll see if I can build something for them myself. Maybe Richard Woods' Pixie would be suitable. Building a boat together sounds like the perfect male-bonding exercise. Either that or the basis of an eternal feud...

Nothing personal Dennis, I just want to point out an issue to everybody who reads this thread and are using your post as an example.



If an opti sailor loving his boat and his sailing read the above, how would he feel?
I think we are too free with our thoughts on the forum. Posts with expressions like this pops up often, and that reflects badly back on ourself. I am sure we have Opti sailors visiting this forum and what would they think about catamaran sailors after reading this? Now Dennis was the unfortunate example (sorry Dennis) but I see the same happening between catamaran classes also. It is very easy to forget that this forum is open for reading for the whole world..


If you are about to go to the investment of building a boat, ask first. There are builders of Pixies, Quattros, F12s, F16s and whatever here. I for sure would not spend the money and time to build an "old" design like the Pixie today, but opinions will vary..

I understand where you're coming from Rolf. I did not intend to hurt anybodies feelings. The problem is that I sometimes find it difficult to formulate politically correct opinions within a reasonable time frame that still say what I mean! The few Opti-lovers I know mostly like the boats for sentimental reasons, not for their aesthetics.
As a cat sailor I am all too familiar with disparaging remarks. Like cats are not 'real' boats, have no grace or style etc etc... Everyone is entitled to their opinions I guess and tastes differ.

I'll be sure to consider the age of the design when and if I go to build one. Cheap to build will be a major criterion though... Could be tough with one of the more racing oriented boats...

Dennis: Where do you live?
There are a few people in Holland who are trying to grow the Dragoon class. IMHO the Dragoon is a great cat for young sailors and adults alike.
What they do is they get a parent to sail with their kid against other kids and when they reach a certain level or age the parent stops and the kids sail with each other.
(I can PM you with more info if you want).

If you are looking for a small learner cat, there is a Hobie Advance for sale now:
http://watersport.marktplaats.nl/catamarans/157217930-hobie-cat-advance-2006.html

edit:
The word "opti-killer" is used quite often, mosly in reference to this little boat:
http://www.openbic.com/

Lots of interesting thoughts here, so I'll give my two cents as well.

First of all, I sailed and raced the Opti for two years. And as many of you correctly has pointed out, the boat is very slow, it has a very poor hull design hydrodynamically speaking, and a low tech rig. The boat is also impossible to sail two up. However, my experience from sailing it is that exactly because of the poor hull design and the low tech rig the boat gave very instant and direct feedback when you did something wrong or right, thus making it a very good learner boat. Because of its bathtub chaped hull it required a very, very good feel when riding waves, both upwind and downhill. This is of course important in any sailing boat, but especially important in the oppy as you truly did kill your speed if you didn't do it right.

As already mentioned, the rig made the boat possible to handle in hairy conditions. With a kicker and a spri-pole you easily learned the basics for sail trim. The sail design also required that the sailor could master the technique of "riding American" (don't know if that's a Norwegian expression) which means you heel the boat to windward to get the top of the sail as high as possible in light conditions. As the hull is rather boxy in shape this required quite a bit of training and balance to master well. In rougher conditions the boat would plane on the waves, making it a wet but very fun ride. As in multis, in these conditions you had to be careful not to stick you bow in. This is also the case for other dinghies, but owning a Laser myself I know that it is far harder to keep an oppy on plane than the Laser, as the Laser's hull to a certain degree does the job for you.

So to me it seems there is a bigger problem finding a boat that kids can take up after the Oppy. Here in Norway most sailors go from the Oppy to the Europe dinghy, which in short is a milder version of the Laser, but very expensive.

It dont seem very logical to me making the kids start out in a boat which is hard to sail?

What would you have decided on if you could go from the Opti into a cat with spi and trapeze or the Europe? Assume both classes had equal numbers locally but only the Europe had any numbers nationally.

J. Castelo Branco (white castle), sailing director of Caicaras Club, Ipanema/Rio, agrees with you 100%. He went on to build a small fleet of maxi-Optimists able to carry two adults!

The class is now knowned as "Castelao" (big castle).

Hey Dennis, did you report your cat launch already?

Hi Andinista,
I did report buying my Nacra 5.2, but I did not cross-post it to all the threads I started while looking for advice...

I have yet to launch the boat, it was snowing over here only a few days ago. Next month I think I'll get around to that. We are in the middle of buying a house, so that could impact the launch date somehow...