It was steady 15 in the gulf about 20 miles north of the races

I just spoke with Nigel. Here are the offical unofficial results after today

Nigel/Shafer 23 pts
Tomko/Billings 25 pts
JC/JW 26 pts

About the DSQ yesterday- he did his turns after the incident and sailed the entire race, but they ruled that it was extensive damage so he got the DSQ. He wasn't too happy about it... Especially since that sent him to B fleet and another guaranteed throw out.

You do the crime, you do the time.



Looks like Nigel's pleading for his life:

I dunno....Mike's a good friend, but I think I'm going to start going to different regattas from him....he always seems to be in the wrong spot at the wrong time!!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I think half the regattas he's raced in over the past couple of years, he's sustained significant damage!!! Ever since he recklessly and deliberately crippled that poor guy from California at the NA F18s in 06!!

Ok...I'm ducking!!

JL
(JK guys....really!!)

Not sure what you're talking about... I race with Mike K, David L, and Nigel on a regular basis and haven't ever seen them in any collissions. They are all top notch sailors. I'm sure the collission was accidental. But that is not the issue here.

This A/B fleet format severally penalizes you if you get a DSQ... For the top teams, it double penalizes you since you can get no better than an 11th on your next race.

A) it was a joke Mark...chill!! (Mike can tell you a few stories about collisions...he doesn't only race cats) And I don't recall bringing any of their sailing skills into question. The fact that they are at AC while the rest of us are arguing about silly crap from a keyboard takes that question out of the equation.

B) fair or not...rules are rules. They apply to everyone equally. And if someone is truly "top of the fleet"...they should be able to recover...as apparently happened here.

I'm certainly listening with respect to the fairness of the rotation rule. The US Multihull Championship has been breaking new ground with this rotation system and we're constantly evolving it. However! If these 20 teams were racing in a 20 boat regatta, a DSQ or an OCS would give you 21 points. All three A-fleet teams have won the sucessive B-fleet race after being "flushed". They got 22 points for the error. Having two throw-outs, instead of one, helps treat the situation as if you were in a 20 boat regatta, got a penalty and absorbed 21 points, and then got to drop it. I don't feel sorry for the teams that got flushed - they've been given an opportunity to recover.

What is interesting out of all of this is that there is only ONE team that has not flushed to b-fleet; Casey and Williams...yet they sit in third place in the current standings. Is that fair to them? Have they been consistently bettered by the other two teams when they race? Who is the team that is performing best in the championship? I don't necessarily have an opinion either way at this point - what are your thoughts?

Jake brought no tools.

Re the pens / points

It's in the SI's that you get a DQS and so drop a fleet. It's documented, if you don't like it, you have two options.

1, Don't sail the event. No one is forcing you onto the water
2, Don't hit people.

Looking at the damage, it was not a "glancing blow", that was a direct hit. It should be avoidable.

The damaged boat is no longer usable, I assume there are a couple of spares.

What redress did the boat that was hit get?

If I was wording the SI's I would have made it a non discardable!

This sort of damage can cause real problems in these sort of events, it's to be avoided at ALL costs.

One nice thing about this system, is that we're down to the last day with several teams in the hunt. AND the leaders are racing head to head with each other. It should be a fun day. Wish I could be there. May the best team win!

Jake, we appreciate your dedication.... I guess at this level consistancy should be critical. I'm not sure how it could be scored differently. A DSQ should probably get 21 points, but not have to suffer the consequence of B fleet. However that would not be fair to the #8 boat that would have to go to B fleet. With the 2 throw outs, at least they get a break to not count the 2nd race while being exiled to B fleet. Since the rules are in the SI, everyone knows the consequences of a DSQ or OCS. PLAY ON!

I can promise you that the team of Casey/Williams isn't too excited about the two throw-outs this morning! They're the ONLY team not to get flushed to B-fleet and in some ways, I can see their argument that this feat should put them in a better advantage. However, they're not regularly beating the other top teams on the water. Do you award consistency?

I was in Jake's chair when the idea of a second throw was introduced. The debate among the committee was spirited - in the end, we decided to try the one-throw-per-five-race formula and see how it went. Obviously, I now feel it was a horrible idea and should never have been contemplated. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously - the format of the Alter Cup has been a grand experiment and each year it is refined in some small way to make the event better. I am excited beyond the capacity of Rolaids to be here and racing with this fleet. Jake and Bob both received proclaimations from the Mayor last night, fer chrissake - this year has been a real stand-out from the perspective of competition, conditions, boats and management. There's a lot of different ways that today can end, but I can't think of too much barring someone getting hurt that would wipe the grin off my face after this week.

Jake, neither I nor JC have or would complain - we knew the rules coming in. If an "argument" is being offered, it isn't coming from us.

Just so everyone understands the situation of the hole in the boat, as I was told, that boat was on Port Tack and was hit by the Starboard Tack boat. I thought there was something in the rules that says you are to avoid a collision at all costs? So, without being there, did the starboard tack boat try to avoid them but "missed", did they hail Starboard, get told to Hold Course and hit them? Was it going upwind or down?

The port tack boat (with the hole) did two 360 turns, then continued racing, with that hole, but was taking on water and retired, then was DSQ'd when the extent of the "substantial damage" was seen, at least that's the way I heard it, but again, I was not there. Wether they finished the race in the bottom 3 or retired or were DSQ'd is irrelevent, because they would be in B fleet next race anyway. But, if the incident happened say near the finish line, and they did circles and might have finished in the top 7, then they wouldn't have been dropped. Either way, they are back in A fleet with the most number of 1st. place finishes (3) of all the boats.

So, in that case, what about the starboard tack boat? Is he off clean after putting a hole in another boat?

They both should be penalized if the boat holed had the ooportunity to evade but didn't in a timely manner - meaning you can't "let" someone hit you and get an advantage from it-
I guess if the fouled boat did not see the offending boat AT ALL you could say they had no idea of what was about to hit them... but then you could argue they should be penalized for not being aware of their surroundings (?).
Hailing starboard doesn't have anything to do with it really IMO- especially at this level. As Rick said at one of his sailing seminars... hailing starboard (unless the other boat clearly doesn't see you) is nothing more than a "beating your chest" move.

before dingo gets on my case... this is a rule discussion and has nothing to do with the actual racing or even the actual situation other than it brings up a good opportunity to discuss and clarify rules.

ROW boat is NOT required to hail anything.

If JC and JW end up tied for 1st, then their consistancy will pay off. Their worse throw out will be better than the other team. So there is some reward for staying out of B fleet. I have a feeling with as close as the top 4 teams are, every point will count.

Any reports? Damn, if only ESPN would carry this.

right

If a port and Stbd both boats may get binned.

Port for not avoiding collision when on Port. Stbd for not avoiding collision even when ROW boat.

Almost 2:00 EST, any news on the last day? Are they racing? Any surprise shake up in standing? Inquiring minds are anxiously awaiting for the crowning!