| |  Re: rules again
[Re: scooby_simon]
#141978
05/05/08 10:47 AM 05/05/08 10:47 AM |
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL Robi 
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St Petersburg FL | Murphy.
That being said, Murph you OWE the ROW its two boat lengths. If its an F16 you must give 32ft of room. If its an I20 that would be 40ft.
Where does that come from?; You do not have to give them the length of the boat x 2 to round. If the ROW boat, chooses to use the TWO BOAT LENGTH zone he can use it to his advantage, making a tactical mark rounding. | | | Re: rules again
[Re: Robi]
#141979
05/05/08 11:43 AM 05/05/08 11:43 AM |
Anonymous
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| Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up. Here is some interesting reading from the ISAF
CASE 84
Rule 18.1 Rounding and Passing Marks and Obstructions: When this Rule Applies.
Discussion of the phrase ‘about to round or pass’, room
Question:
When is a boat ‘about to round or pass’ a mark within the meaning of rule 18.1?
Answer:
The phrase ‘about to round or pass’ has never been defined precisely, nor can it be. In approaching a mark, there is no exact point at which a boat become ‘about to round or pass’ it. Almost always a boat two hull lengths from a mark is ‘about to round or pass’ it, but this is sometimes so at a greater distance too. Not only is the distance from the mark a factor, but the boat’s speed is also important, and other factors such as the conditions of wind and current an the amount of sail handling required before or during the rounding may also be relevant. Moreover the nearer the boat is to the mark the more definitely she is ‘about to round or pass’it. The answer to the question depends upon the particular circumstances of each situation.
Regards
Chet | | | Re: rules again
[Re: Robi]
#141980
05/05/08 12:12 PM 05/05/08 12:12 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | Murphy.
That being said, Murph you OWE the ROW its two boat lengths. If its an F16 you must give 32ft of room. If its an I20 that would be 40ft.
Where does that come from?; You do not have to give them the length of the boat x 2 to round. If the ROW boat, chooses to use the TWO BOAT LENGTH zone he can use it to his advantage, making a tactical mark rounding. There is nothing in the current rule-set that specifies how much room the inside boat is permitted. It DOES provide definition for the diameter of the "2 length" circle in which several of the rounding rules come into play - but "room" to round a mark is exactly that with no additional dimension.
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: rules again
[Re: Jake]
#141981
05/05/08 12:14 PM 05/05/08 12:14 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
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South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | and oh yeah - the current 2005-2008 rules/prescriptions are pretty close to being replaced!
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: rules again
[Re: ]
#141982
05/05/08 12:16 PM 05/05/08 12:16 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969 brucat
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| I find it hard to believe you hot shots are unaware that the 2 boat length circle is frequently bigger.
Flame on
aa Hey Chet, Not sure of your point here. Do you mean the SIs allow it to be bigger, or that people's perception on the water makes it bigger than it really is? I have personally seen SIs that use 3 lengths, but nothing more. Not saying it's a bad idea, just haven't seen more than 3 lengths used. However, it is extremely rare, in the northeast US at least, to use anything other than the standard 2 lengths. I also think people tend to exaggerate the size of the cirle depending on their viewpoint at the time of the incident, so I'm not sure if it would actually help to open it up. Mike | | | Re: rules again
[Re: Jake]
#141983
05/05/08 12:19 PM 05/05/08 12:19 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969 brucat
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There is nothing in the current rule-set that specifies how much room the inside boat is permitted. It DOES provide definition for the diameter of the "2 length" circle in which several of the rounding rules come into play - but "room" to round a mark is exactly that with no additional dimension.
That's true, and it was true at the time of the seminar I referenced. However, the interpretation of the applicable rules basically works out that if you're an inside ROW boat (starboard), you can take a tactical rounding. Still, I haven't heard from any spin boat hotshots whether they would attempt this maneuver in 18+ knots of wind. Mike | | | Re: rules again
[Re: Robi]
#141984
05/05/08 12:56 PM 05/05/08 12:56 PM |
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding.... |
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Looking for a Job, I got credi... | Murphy.
That being said, Murph you OWE the ROW its two boat lengths. If its an F16 you must give 32ft of room. If its an I20 that would be 40ft.
Where does that come from?; You do not have to give them the length of the boat x 2 to round. If the ROW boat, chooses to use the TWO BOAT LENGTH zone he can use it to his advantage, making a tactical mark rounding. But that is nothing to do with the room requited TO ROUND THE MARK.
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: rules again
[Re: HMurphey]
#141986
05/05/08 04:12 PM 05/05/08 04:12 PM |
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348 fin. OP
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OP
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| Jeez! Calm down dude. Nobody was screaming, there was no collision. Just some friends enjoying a nice day on the water.
For the record, our A cat fleet has some new saiors and we (the tail end of the F16 fleet) are starting to pick some of those new guys off!
Last edited by Tikipete; 05/05/08 04:13 PM.
| | | Re: rules again
[Re: bobcat]
#141988
05/05/08 06:02 PM 05/05/08 06:02 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969 brucat
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| This isn't directed at anyone specific, and isn't a rant (just something to consider), so everyone please remain calm...
One thing I have witnessed, especially in light air, is that some spin boat sailors don't / can't appreciate how slow the H16s, 17s, and 18s are, and come in "hot" with nowhere to go. The reason is, we're drifting down to the mark, while the spin boats are cruising. They figure we'll be long gone, but they are so much faster, we're still bobbing around just trying to get there. And if the air is light enough, depending on the positioning of the boats, sometimes we CAN'T get out of the way in time to give you room.
Frustrating for everyone...
Mike | | | Re: rules again
[Re: HMurphey]
#141989
05/05/08 08:07 PM 05/05/08 08:07 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | Yah, I know you guys think I'm an IDIOT ...just because I'm not computer literate doesn't mean I do not know the rules ...
Read "Jakes" Post carefully about layline!!!! I think he proved my point.
First; by coming in "above the mark outside the 2 Boatlength circle you simplify the situation to a Port-Starb crossing ... the boat on "port" has NO rights and MUST stay clear. Agreed???
Secondly; After you jybe you will be able to come into the mark "powered up" ... under controll ... and make a nice rounding of turning 270degrees, effectively slingshoting around the mark ... exiting with alot of speed!!!
Know remember what "Jake" posted about the layline ... so let look at the "coming in ON the starboard layline"
First; you come screaming in yelling at the top of your lungs and speeding along physically ... do you really think that you can "douse the spin" and round the mark inside the 2 boatlength circle??? Most likely your speed will carry you well beyond the circle, especially if there is any wind at all!!!
Secondly; you will be trying to make a 360 degree turn ... all at once ... my 25+ years of catamaran racing experience tells me that is really SLOW!!!! You are trying to do TWO manuevers at once ... I find that with my "mear mortal and limited brain power" I am much better if I concentrate on one thing at a time and do it well! How about you guys ... are you guys that good???
How about failure to avoid the collision clause in the "Racing Rules" ... yes you where on Starboard w/ an inside overlapbut does that give you the right to come in "out of controll" ...drive over the layline ... forcing boats who are with-in the 2 boatlength circle to drive off ... maybe ... maybe not ... We quickly get back to the definition of a technical/seamanship rounding of a Mark ... I personally wouldn't want to take the "Starboard boat's position to a "Protest Hearing" especially if there is boat damage!
So if I'm the port boat what would I do ... I'm most likely going to slow down and let your speed carry you past the mark ... next when you attempt the "hard turn" I will "heat my boat up, duck your sterns ... feeding you a BIG knuckle of dirt air to boot ... slowing you down even further ... sling-shot the rounding, leaving you in the dust ... And if anyone is on my sterns they mostlikely will do the same your are now on the outside eating "dirty air as the train of boats leaves you behind ... hows that sound
When I started racing ... no flag ... no protest allowed! The first question you were asked was "Did you display your flag?" And I saw some racers who would take advantage of boats w/ out flags, fouling them knowing full well they couldn't be protested!!! So to this day I still have my flag slung under my boom in a tube ... ready for use ... And I have only used it once ... in all the races I have sailed!!!
Harry
PS: the name is MURPHEY ... if you are going to call me an idiot at least get my name correct Murphy, ever since that infamous day rounding Cape Canaveral when two teams went inside the no-go buoys around the launch pad, and the protest was tossed because the protesting team didn't fly a flag and the N20 was 2 inches too long to fall within the new "no protest flag required rule" even though the facts were found that the teams didn't sail the proper course and sailed a short-cut that the race committee could have and should have protested the sailors on....I too carry a protest flag every race....but that's another story! With regards to the c-mark rights a port boat has over a starboard boat; If you are on port at a rounding and have contact with a starboard boat at the mark, port is at fault and will be tossed. I've studied this quite a bit and in almost every historical precedent I've read, the starboard boat actually loses the protest unless there was contact. The tricky thing to prove is that the port boat did not give enough room to round the mark - only if there was a collision was it evident that the port boat did not yield enough room and port is at fault. Port is really the only one in this scenario with any course options since starboard is committed to passing between the port boat and the mark (with rights). It's a strange scenario, yes...but it's how this rule plays out historically. A starboard boat can physically gybe-douse around a mark. It's a little tricky to do cleanly but it can be done. It's almost a certainty that the door will be left wide open for the port boat to round close and get the windward advantage in this scenario - so although port has no rights in this situation, there is an option to regain the tactical advantage if the maneuver is timed correctly. If starboard blows the rounding and sails past the layline, the correct action is not to hit them, but to protest them (if it's even worth it after the advantage you just gained on them).
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: rules again
[Re: HMurphey]
#141991
05/05/08 10:15 PM 05/05/08 10:15 PM |
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL Robi
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St Petersburg FL | (Wouter ... Rolf ... Scooby Simon ... Robbie Daniels, all those gentlemen are ... I'm a pragmatist/realist and a mear mortal )
Harry Harry awesome post man. Good riddens. BUT with all do respect to you and the names you mentioned; after sailing this last weekend with Robbie Daniels I honestly do not think the fellas mentioned in the same sentence are in the same league. No doubt each is great in there own style of sailing, but Robbie Daniels is in a league of his own. He is #2 to represent the US in the Olympics on the Tornado. That being said IMO he is a step above us all mear mortals. | | | Re: rules again
[Re: HMurphey]
#141994
05/06/08 01:45 AM 05/06/08 01:45 AM |
Joined: May 2003
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West coast of Norway Rolf_Nilsen
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West coast of Norway | (Wouter ... Rolf ... Scooby Simon ... Robbie Daniels, all those gentlemen are ... Neither Wouter or I have posted our opinions on the topic, so I dont see why we are used as an argument. That is unless you are making a point here. On the Tornado you dont have time to douse within the two boatlength circle unless you are there alone in weak winds and coming in deep. Even then it would be hard to make a good rounding. Staying out of trouble is fast, and the best sailors stay out of troubly by being around the marks first. That is my experience. (But even then they are sometimes run down by other boats coming in after them) Interesting how much room there is for discussion and interpretions on the racing rules of sailing. | | | Re: rules again
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#141996
05/06/08 07:12 AM 05/06/08 07:12 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
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South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | The spin boat wouldn't be dousing within the 2 length circle. The douse would have started much earlier than that and, if timed properly, would be finishing up as the boat gybes. You can make a decent rounding gybing around the mark (or within one boat-length of the mark) but it takes some coordination and practice. Spin up or down makes no difference to the rules situation.
I use this maneuver quite often to try and hold an advantage and it usually works if the gybe-douse is clean.
Jake Kohl
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