Hello All,
I'd like to get some info from you guys. First there are only 2 F-16's here in CA, but it seems like it might fit the needs of some people. I've had a few inquiries re F16's and basically blew them off as there is no one-design class and I didn't want the headache of starting and supporting another class.

It seems like most of the people that inquire want a lighter boat that is easier to drag down the beach, lighter rig etc, but still fast. Speed of cats is relative as you know, and from the inquiries that I've gotten, I feel a well sailed Hobie 16 will be plenty "fast" for most of these guys, but the spi, weight, and carbon mast option make it intriguing.

We sail out of Santa Cruz and the SF bay, which is game-on sailing. Standard conditions here in the summer are 20kts from the NW with a windswell of 4-7'. There is not much protection other than sailing within 1/8 mile from shore. So knowing that, here are my direct questions:

Would you sell an f16 to a noob cat sailor that has never raced, flown a spi etc, or even crewed on a high performance beach cat, and feel good about it in the aforementioned conditions?

Would the boat hold up to the conditions here?

Would you store your F16 on the beach?

Would you compare the rigging time to any of the other spi boats, Tiger, FX, Infusion etc? How long (realistically)?

Monetarily speaking, should I pony up and support this class on the West Coast?

I definitely don't want this post to spur on any politics, I'm just looking for some honest info. Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

I wonder whether any newby should be let loose in those conditions, regardless of what boat they are on! I would think the F16 could certainly take it and maybe be better off since they are easier to right than a lot of the others. You can't reasonably sail a H16 solo in those conditions can you?
The F16 is very easily depowered and sailing 2-up on the F16 in wind like that is awesome. I think you would sell more than a few... what other boat possible fits the profile you are talking about that can be sailed and raced solo or 2-up? There are a lot of husband wife teams that are looking for a F16, they just don't know it yet.

Probably not without arranging some training at the same time. Having sailed Dart 18 and F18 before sailing F16, I'd say it'd be pretty much the same as selling them an F18.



Yes.



I'm a pond sailor, but many people do store F16s on a beach.



2-up, it's identical to an F18. 1-up it's a little quicker.



Depends on how practised you are, and what you're starting from. My boat lives on its road trailer with the mast up and a cover on it, and it takes me about 15 minutes.



Obviously I'm biased, and am not very familiar with the West Coast sailing scene, but the versatility and light weight are what make the F16 unique. You mention it in comparison to the H16, but it's a very different boat with a different appeal. It's certainly a faster boat, but if what you're after is pure drag racing reaches, then the H16 may be a better boat, as the F16, like the F18, is focused on maximising upwind/downwind race performance.

The market for the boat is much closer to that of the F18 or FX-one. The advantages are the lighter weight which means easier to right and easier to drag up the beach and the ability to sail 1-up or 2-up. As an average club sailor, it's these practical benefits that make all the difference for me. The disadvantage (at least round here) is that currently the fleets are far smaller than for F18.

Paul

why would you blow them off if there is no one design class? for the same reason you would blow them off if they were interested in an F18.

Hmmm, Thoughtful?

I think that you already know the answer to the first question. I liken it to asking if you should sell someone a high performance auto for a trip from Paris to Dakar, when they have only previously driven to church on Sundays .

I sail in relative isolation on a Northern lake so I won't touch the questions regarding ocean conditions and F18 comparisons. I do store my boat on a beach but probably not the way you are refering to. Do you tend to leave $16,000 laying around without worrying about other people?

Do you need to money up? Could you become a West Coast distributor, or is that the same as putting money in the game?

Again, conscious of the politics on this forum. F-18's have a huge class and are supported by a serious infrastructure here on the West Coast. Performance and Hobie.

If the general sailing populace knew the very slim margins we dealers have to work with, you'd think we were all nuts to try to make our business work. Having said that, I am not willing to go through the work of having a single boat shipped from FL, EU, or AUS with no prospect of selling more. Gearing up for stocking parts (that in some cases require custom build) etc, etc requires a huge commitment in time and $$. West Marine is right up the street, which is where people go out of habit, even though their prices are oftentimes higher.

All of this rigamaroll to make $500 is not worth it, even though I love small cats above all else. When dealing with the heavy-weights like Hobie and P-cats I have serious backup anytime I need it.

When importing through a 'West Coast Rep' let's say for example. I am an expert at shipping, building, activating warranty, rigging and sailing cats. It just seems that people are willing to deal directly with the manufacturers. Oftentimes, with the result being that they would have rather paid me to do it for them, so I want to be smart about it.


They are on a Getaway right now, and I feel they are pretty safe.




Yes, I leave my FX-one on the beach all summer. Our beach is very safe. I was mostly asking about the hulls, rig etc, taking a beating from the conditions and the occasional kid using it as a trampoline.

So, can I expect around $16,000+tax ($2000)+reg($50) +ship ($2000)+ commissioning ($500)

Is this fair?

$21 g's all said and done to CA +or-.

Jeremy, I know of four in CA. Two Taipans, a Blade, and a Stealth.

I agree with Bruce that if you feel comfortable with leaving a $16K boat on the beach, then nothing should be stopping you.

If I were you, I'd be talking to VWM about distributorship out West. After laying my eyes on a VWM Blade in Long Beach, CA and sailing this beautiful boat, I am under the impression that there will be people who would want one.

They're light and that is what will get the folks to fork out the extra money instead of going with the Hobie. Show me a catamaran that can be sailed (and righted) solo or two-up, weighs less than 240 pounds. That should pretty much sell the product I would think. F16HP, any others?

F16HP, The Tool, The Rule

GARY

Slightly rhetorical Bobcat, for public view.

I thought that Bruce's (Bobcat's) thoughtful input was right on.

GARY

Thanks guys!! This is really helpful info so far. Keep it coming.

I think that you would sell more F16s than you think. As for the other issues- hard to really relate as I am not a dealer so i certainly can't speak to that.
In truth, if I were always sailing in winds of 20kn I would want a custom sail with less area on my Blade for sailing solo... but that being said, the stock sails do depower very well.

bottom line, I think, IMO:
When customers feel the weight compared to an F18 they will want one.
When you take the husband aside and tell him that he can sail it solo if she ends up not liking it they will want it.
When they are up to it- and sail with the spin solo they will want one.

I use to live in the Bay area and was sailing my hobie 16 in the bay (from redwood city), in the ocean (from Santa-Cruz launch ramp) and in a reservoir in the mountain in between when sailing solo.



F16 have a lot of sail area, but it is relatively easy to depower them. However a noob sailor in 20knots of wind will have some tough time whatever cat they pick. Maybe sailing a F16 2-up without the jib at the beginning could be a path to controlling the beast.



No question about it. I've seen F16 out in 25knots, no problem.


I wouln't recommend storing any fiberglass boat on a beach. Period. Get a rotomoulded one instead. Note that I would not recommend launching from the beach in Santa Cruz with any boat with a daggerboard either, the water is shallow and you can't make way, pick speed or tack without the boards down. Tacking out of the channel is not fun, but easier to do with a F16 when compared with a H16.


Exactly the same, faster if you are solo (no jib). The hardware is really similar to anything you see on a F18.


Please do. When people want something faster than a H16, but don't want something as heavy as a F18 (or requiring a crew all the time) the F16 shines. As a Solo boat it is way better than a H16 (hey, you can still tack if you take the jib down <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, and lighter than a FX-one.

That's exactly where I'm at. Thanks for the input.

There's also a Blade here in Reno, which should be in your catchment area. Actually, right now it's half a blade - one hull got damaged in shipping.

See, those are the issues that a distributor would deal with, which is why most boat manufacturers have an authorized dealer to activate warranty... Basically check over the built boat and make sure it's all good.

Thanks Rhino.

One design infrastructure.

Jeremy... it seems you have two full on race programs on the west coast. The A class and the F18.
You have a second equally committed tier with Hobie 16's, which speaks to a different group of sailors.

You have two race niches left. the two person non spin performance boats. (Hobie 20 Hobie 18) and this niche which is the single handed with spin class. I would not see the need to market the boat as a OD race class until it happens. Just make sure that the sailors have one opportunity a month to go race the F16 in an open class...

Some might say that "CRAP another cat race class will dilute the racing scene". My argument is that this race boat fills a niche that is empty. Moreover, the idea that by killing new classes so as to preserve the existing racing status quo always seems to die. When life changes for a sailor... no amount of class strenght in an F18 or Hobie 16 can balance... crew...and no crew issues.

When and if a critical racing mass materializes... then... its a great problem to have.

Yeah! Sign me up. Thanks for the insight Mark.

If someone in California buys a Blade direct from VWM, do they pay sales tax? If not, it would be hard to compete with the direct-sales.

I don't think so

Jeremy,
Give me a call any time if you want more info on the class. As you know, I've sailed my Taipan up and down California for 5 years and have also sailed the Blade and Stealth here in California and looked at the fleet of 10 or so Stealths in London area.

I had a great time this past weekend "mixing it up" with Rhino's nacra and other big cats.

I'll pm you with my cell number.