Dermot - any chance you could confirm the rumour that Wouter was helming the Spitfire? Sorry, I'll get my coat....

You know you are always welcome <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Our inlands are July 19/20, Blessington - close to Dun Laoghaire. Nationals are Cork Sept. 13/14. Or just drop in and say Hello <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Eire is that place that Churchill was going to invade because we stayed neutral. This is Modern Ireland and everyone is very welcome <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I have a lot of respect for Wouter because of all the work he has done for the F16 Class and the help he has given to beginners, who may never sail F16. He is always there trying to help. Sometimes I shrink away when he makes his blunt statements ( Sorry for talking about you like this Wouter).
As an amateur sailor, I have to respect Macca for his ability to sail well and win races, but, correct me if I am wrong, I haven't seen too many posts where Macca has rushed in to advise and help other sailors. So, Wouter gets my vote - Now I will go back to my corner and stay quiet for the next few months <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here is a long PS. The Nacra seems like a nice cat, and may in fact be a faster boat than the Spitfire, but, The UK and French Spitfire sailors are some of the best cat sailors around. Many of the top F18 sailors are ex Spitfire sailors.
And in the end we are all Cat Sailors <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

PPS. Nice post Eric - Always very level headed !

Ok now I am really confused <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
I thought the F104 class was designed to bring existing catamarans of similar performance together and compete equally. If that is so how can you have one type of boat be better than the others in the class.

Simon,

Are you suggesting the Nacra has not been measured and doesn't have am SCHRS rating yet?

No. I'm suggesting that i don't understand how one boat design could be faster when it has the same performance rating as the other classes in the formula.

I'm sure someone will explain it.

Simon - I am pretty sure the 104 rating is derived from measurement not performance.

There is some confusion over the all up weight.

Macca / or another Nacra employee; please advise soonest what weight of the boat is in 2 up trim.

Please send the measurement certificate to my email address; which can be found on the SCHRS site http://www.schrs.com/ Simon (at) SCHRS.com

I have a lot of respect for Wouter because of all the work he has done for the F16 Class and the help he has given to beginners, who may never sail F16. He is always there trying to help. Sometimes I shrink away when he makes his blunt statements ( Sorry for talking about you like this Wouter).
As an amateur sailor, I have to respect Macca for his ability to sail well and win races, but, correct me if I am wrong, I haven't seen too many posts where Macca has rushed in to advise and help other sailors. So, Wouter gets my vote - Now I will go back to my corner and stay quiet for the next few months <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry Dermot; I was really trying to make a (humerous)comment on the rather surreal direction the thread had taken not having a dig at Wouter - who I imagine was having quite a laugh at events. Would tend to agree with your comment for what it's worth.

I'm confused. Was it a Spitfire or F17 that won the French Nats? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The nacra F17 crew at Texel who did well are "hired jocks"; sailmakers who work in Europe during the summer months (Performance sails = owner Nacra) and in Aus during the winter months.

All F16 crews at Texel this year were unpaid (private) sailors and none of them were agents either. However, I seem to remember that Jeroen Brouwer used to crew quite succesfully for Remco Kenbeek on the F18, so he can be put down as a skilled sailor nonetheless. Remco, however, is no longer an agent for AHPC product and hasn't been for a year now. Yet I must admit that the situation with the Viper-F16 and Jeroen Brouwer is not totally clear to me. I never learned if he owns one and I really don't see the current agent for the Viper hiring him either.

But without further info I think both crews should be assumed to be of about equal sailing skills.

That is what I know from my side.

Wouter

Now I'm known to sometimes make pretty daring statements, but not even I would even consider promoing a newly launched F104 as the fastest design in a fleet were I put the Spitfire as the slowest boat.

That is just beyond stupid. I've seldomly seen a small boat/class like the Spitfire being raced so well consistantly for some many years by a relatively large group of top sailors. The list of impressive Spitfire results is very long indeed and the top Spitfire crews are very skilled. There is no significant chance of beating such a combo right off the bat, barring any DSQ's and that kind of stuff. Let alone a couple of teenage kids who are new to the boat as shown in the picture.

Personally, if Leger did sail a F17 then his 1st place result over Sproat is very impressive. If Leger sailed a Spitfire instead then somebody and some dealorship will score a massive promo backlash by errornously claiming a win that belongs somewhere else !

Wouter

I know you were only joking - I was just having another go at Macca <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ohh, that is not a problem Dermot; I'm fine with that.

I know what I am and indeed I do tend to be a bit sensational in my writing.

I'm well aware that not everybody will be appreciative of that.

However, the last bit still doesn't mean that the numbers and arguments presented in my post aren't scientifically founded or well researched.

Neither do I claim to be unfallible and when I'm shown to be incorrect I will always publically admit to that and correct my error. Additionally, I endeavour to be equally critical in all directions. For example, I have given the US F16 class a hard time over the peachy USPN for the F16 boats when compared to F18's and I-20's. And I try to give praise were is it justified (Nacra 500 is an excellent design). I trust that this goes a long way in redeeming my more confrontational "qualities". <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

From the evidence I have found and posted above, it would seem that it was a Spitfire.

Or the boat was carrying (alot) of ballast to get it up to specs c.q. F104 compliance.

The F104 class has no rules limiting the amount of ballast you can use as the true formula classes like the F18 have.

Of course this ballast will the first thing to be "forgotten" by private owners of these boats.

Pretty much the F104 class doesn't have much rules at all beyond the requirement that all boats must be rated between 1.035 and 1.045 when using the SCHRS handicap system. In fact, a F18 can be made to be a F104 by rather small modifications. In fact, the easiest route to do this is to fit the official small F18 sailplan and add about 10-15 kg of weight to the boat.

Wouter

Here some info on the F104 concept. First in their official French language source and then translated by babelfish and myself. Babelfish sometimes makes weird translations and I'm reasonably skilled in French. The orginial babelfish translation is given at the end of this post so everyone can check my alterations for compliance.


Source : http://class104.over-blog.org/article-19063996.html

dated 26 april 2008


********************************************************************************

Hello,

In order to race in the 104 class.

It is needed that the boat is produced in series, with the definition being that least ten boats have been produced and that it has been presented to the public at an international nautical trade fair.

Those existing boats that currently have an ISAF rating of 104, will be considered to be in conformity with the class “104”; nevertheless in order to guarantee the credibility of the class “104”, unexpected checks during events known as “104” could be made at all times by the measurers of the Class.

The idea being that the boats are self-certified by their manufacturer.

There can be / will be a check whether the boats are within the 104 framework at regatta's in order to validate that there is not any non-compliance.


By default an Evolution, Spitfire, FX One or Mattaia Esse and soon the Nacra F17 are class Legal when they are sailed in their original configuration.

The list of the boats that are C104 Class compliant will be published annually at the time of the Nautical trade fair of Paris.

Replacement sails may only come from the manufacturing of the boat.

Thus these can not be certified by measurement as executed by the class authority


In following, an association will be created; it is obviously desirable to adhere to it and to have some say on class 104 and its rules. For the moment, there is no obligation to adhere to 104 (The association does not exist yet), since this classification is semi-official and is only with the will of the organizers of regattas


*****************************************************************************



Babelfish unaltered translation :

Hello, For régater classifies 104 of them: Is needed that its boat is a boat of series, the definition is generally qu' there is had at least ten boats of products and qu' it is presented to an international nautical trade fair. D' after the project of gauge: The current existing boats currently with a rating ISAF of 104, will be considered in conformity with the class “104”, nevertheless in order to guarantee the credibility of the class “104”, of unexpected controls on the tests known as “104” could be made at all times by the gauges of the Class. L' idea being qu' they car-are certified by their manufacturer. It n' there will have of gauge of the boats that within the framework of taking away on regattas in order to validate qu' it n' there does not have deviance. By defect an Evolution, Spit, a FX One or Esse and soon Nacra F17 are Class Legal in their original configuration. The list of the boats C104 Class Legal will be published annually at the time of the Nautical trade fair of Paris. The veils of replacement will be able to come only from manufacturing boat. Thus not of certif of gauge to be managed by the landlord. Then, an association will be creates, it is obviously desirable d' to adhere to it to have some say on class 104 and its rules. For the moment no obligation d' adhesion n' 104 (l' is put to be classified; ESA n' do not exist yet), since this classification is semi-official and is with the only will of the organizers of regattas…

As far as I can tell at this moment there are no other agreed upon class rules In F104 except the point mentioned in the various postings above.

There has been a proposal to add additional limits to this class like :

Source : http://class104.over-blog.org/categorie-1161866.html

-1- 2-up sloop + spi
-2- 1-up uni + spi
-3- Only poly- or vinyl-esther are allowed and only glass fibre, sandwhich PVC, or wood-epoxy
-4- All other part must be of (constant crossection) extruded aluminium.
-5- Carbon only allowed in boards and blocks.
-6- max lenght 5.52 mtr
-7- max width 2.55 mtr
-8- minimum ready to sail weigth 135 kg
-9- maximum corrector wieght = 5 kg


However I have found no agreement or even in depth discussion on this proposal so I guess it is just that ; a proposal.

In my opinion the F104 class and "national" events at this time are nothing more then a fleet race of boats that happen to share a very similar handicap. In my recollections the French used to split of these boat into a seperate fleet for several years already before it was rebranded as the F104 class. During that time this fleet was also typically 20-30 boat strong, the bulk being Spitfires and Mattia Esse's; both designs that have been around for over 10 years already.

Wouter

Ahha. Yes I think you are right.

Thanks for the translation Wouter. My year nine french wasn't getting me very far on that website.