F18??? A class?? should i continue?

Wouter, it means there are some in the process of being assembled and another 2 or 3 more on their way to Singapore (depending whether you count the stock the dealers holds on hand) and the boats are in a container somewhere between the factory and Singapore. ETA is one week. I know cos one of them has my name on it. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

With the latest shipment i believe the fleet of vipers do hit 10 just here in Singapore alone. With 10 vipers, lots of taipans, 2 blades, lots of nacras, couple of A cats, couple of hobies this monsoon should see some really really fun racing.

Talking about the Nacra 17, we do have one of the first boats here in Singapore, waayyy back from the late 90s when they were known as inter 17 (australian version). In fact i believe these were one of the first 17s to be built ever they are definitely very very different animals from the Nacra EU F17 seen on the nacra website. Can't imagine how it would be possible to come up with a common rating for the Nacra 17 unless all the older 17 were forced to change their rigs, foils, sails, control lines... Just removing the bridle for the jib on the old 17 is worth quite a few kilos right there.

But back to talking about the F104, while it's a really great idea, i think it might be tough for the idea to gain traction internationally because the boats that now fit within F104 are very very specific to Europe IMO. But i do love the idea of having a whole bunch of boats really close in rating just racing together and i think in the future, fleets of F100 or F104 or whatever will start popping up depending on which parts of the world one is in.

For example, i personally do not foresee the F104 gaining traction in Asia. The boats that fit within that framework are generally from European manufacturers and too expensive (due to euro), the fact that other fleets are already very established in this region, and the current boats in the F104 are just too heavy. but the concept is still great though and I look forward to the future of everyone racing together.

interesting.. You told me you bought a Hobie..

Stay miffed. Means that I don't consciously go counting boats at the club. Just know that there are a few of them now with more on the way. There were 4 on the water today, is that precise enough for you?

Sue, I have been a strong proponent of a level rated class solution for the USA...(When you get enough boats... its a step up from handicap and below lots of strong OD classes) It makes a lot more sense then small one design classes.

But No, F18 is not an example.

I believe you have a formula F18 box rule which evolves and serves to limit lots of inovations. (good things as far as the class membership is concerned)

This would be completely at odds with a Level rated rule which used ISAf or Texel to calculate the rating. as macca said... change a rated paramaeter on your boat to get into the class.

Moreover, the F18 Class has a real tendancy to fracture and go one design as soon as they can in the USA.
The BS that both an F18 class and a F18 OD class can exist is crap because people choose to go racing 5 or 6 times a year and then you don't have critial mass for both classes.\
US Sailors are simply NOT going to listen or support any national authority that tells them what they can or can not do.

I came to the conclusion that human nature is such that variables in the wide open level rated class undermine buy in to the class. As soon as one type is thought to be faster... it's a game over. EG. the Ventilo 20 crushed the F20 class in that now dead formula class.

the US tried an informal level rated with Nacra 5.8's and Prindle 19's. it just drove up the "Horse's for courses debate," Basically Humans always think it's the equipment... not the skill set on the tiller.

I think level racing is a great idea... BUT is seemingly hard to make happen. The US has their I17 fleet and a F16 single handed fleet (sort of kind of fleet)... You would think after 4 years that they would have found a way to get ONE event scheduled, promoted and sailed.

It seems that only a National sailing authority like the French can make and enforce a level rating class. Sounds like the sailors are going along with it in France.

([censored]... the USA sailors can't even join a national class, much less follow a USSA directive.)

Do the french stop a club from hosting a one design race in events whihc host a level rated F104 class?

What else are the french doing to make a level rated class happen.

Thanks
Mark

I don't know about Texel, but Chris's Spitfire at the French 104 Nationls was a standard OD Spitfire - as was Freddy's

Are we guessing now ?

Wouter

Hi Mark,

that is a good comment. However I am not sure if the french sailing authority forces sailors to do F104 racing. It is maybe a kind of interculturel difference between the U.S. and Europe. I know a lot of people who buy the boat, where the dealers is closest or others buy Hobie just because they bought always Hobies. But not beacuse one company claims superiority. Technical details or boat performance is rated as not that important and hence we (in Europe) can imagine to sail different boats with the same rating. I think that you will find this difference of rating technology benefit not only in sailing, but in many aspects of life.

But I agree, every level rated calss is prone to break apart. A-cat is doing well, maybe because all boats are very similar, and the most important part, mast and sail, will be exchanged regulary anyway. So no problem to update. F18 is doing well in Europe, but to be honest F18 is closer to OD than Formula, because the rules are so tight.

Cheers,

Klaus

Wouter,

it is all about guessing:
The magazine "voiles et voiliers" guessed that the F17 sloop is much better than all other F104.
Nacra guessed that they won the F104 nationals.
Macca guessed that Frederic sailed a Nacra, than that Frederic is a kid.
Sue guessed that the Spitfire in Texel was a modification.
And a group of people guess that the boat is more important than the sailors ability.

It is maybe not guessing, it is intensionally stating wrong facts.

Cheers,

Klaus

and I'm guessing you are hit the nail on the head Klaus! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

smoke and mirrors anyone? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Simon,

Have you ever put the FX1 data advertised by Hobie into schrs? I seem to recall they forgot to put the mast measurment into sail area.I did it a few years ago (before the rating mods). It was quite interesting.

David

All the configs we have been asked to rate for boats are on the site

http://www.schrs.com/index.php?page=ratings


We are in the process of uploading a few more this weekend.

damn that looks like a lot of work!!

So for sailors who use the system.. thanks...

The story:

AFAIK the first measurement done on a euro F17 was done in February in France on boat number 376 by Pierre-Charles Barraud. It was found *not* compliant with 104 by a tiny margin. This measurement was done at the request of the french sailing magazine "voiles et voiliers" who published an article earlier this year comparing a bunch of 104.

Nacra (changed|will change|may change|said they will change|is rumored they may have changed) the jib a little bit to make the boat compliant at 1.035. I have no idea if this change has been made or not.

At the french challenge 104 (*not* national F104, the class is not recognised yet and as such cannot pretend to a national), the same boat, a factory sponsored Nacra F17 #376, crewed by a top teenage team (Gueho/Lecallo-usually racing on SL16) won by a nice margin in the light winds, with lines honor a lot of times. After being protested for being not 104 compliant by the Spitfire in second position it appeared that the Nacra F17 crew was unable to produce a measurement certificate, so they were DSQ by the jury.

According to a comment by Lecallo on a french forum this particular F17 has now been re-measured and found compliant with 1.04, which would imply that Nacra has implemented the jib change on this particular boat, but nobody outside the reseller knows if it was done *before* or *after* the event, so the DSQ stands. And nobody has seen this new measurement certificate either.

Thanks Pepin,

That story sounds about right. I saw the jib get changed before it left for the event. But you'll have to take my word for it.

Think about it. They knew about the measuement before the event. Would it seriously be in their interest to leave the boat as it was in February.

Like i said before it sounds like those kids were bullied out of their result by older, wiser and more experienced crews. Not the first time something like that has happened.

I cant understand how you could throw out a team for measurement issues without actually measuring the boat? Ridiculous!! As specially at the end of the regatta.

Sue

A requirement for all the regatta I know about is to have a measured boat with a measurement certificate. AFAIK the only measurement done with this boat at the time of the 104 challenge was done early in the year, the change in jib was probably implemented but the boat was not re-measured. Hence its DSQ.

It would be nice if Sirena would send the rumored new certificate to the SCHRS to end these discussions once and for all.

As for the "end of regatta protest" I should point out that the protest was verbally notified to the crew on the Nacra on the first day and officially logged at the beginning of the second day, but only judged *after* the regatta.

At the F16 global challenge of aug 2007. All boats were checked for compliance with F16 class rules and 2 crews had to recut their sails and have them checked AGAIN to be allowed to race. A third crew had to put weight up the top of their mast for the same reasons. Sails were marked for the event so compliance of easily exchanged gear could easily be checked by rival crews at any moment during the racing. I can give many examples of similar dealings at other classes like the A's, F18's and Tornado's.

For some reason this seems to be a recurring theme, hardly an exception. The DSQ and protest rules are there for a reason. This was not an "improper" protest and DSQ ruling as far as I can tell because this is exactly why these rules are in place.

I mean, as you say, who benefits from sloppy measurements or sloppy enforcement of compliance ?


The winning team with the non-compliant boat ?

The catamaran dealor selling the new boat type (first of its kind) using the promo value of a win in its first event ?

The F104 class as they can claim another boat "optimized" to their "class" rule



Are we really that naive to believe that we don't have a bunch of diverging interests here, that need to be tightly controlled and regulated ?

Are we to believe that nobody is benefitting when "accidently" picking up the wrong sailbag out of the trailer or having "foolishly" misplaced the "rumoured" measurement certificate ?



But to top it off you actually argue :




Well, the "measurement issue" are that the given boat WASN'T measured as compliant the first time around (feb 2008) and no new measurement of the (rumoured) modification making it compliant could be presented. All classes demand a boat to be measured BEFORE entering a race as simply no boat can ever be retro-active be certified after the event.


I call that a serious issue inside any self respecting formula class !

I mean how difficult is it to miraculously pick the correct sailbag out of the trailer for such a measurement ? Without "event stamping" there is no way to check which sail was actually used during the races.



What is the difference between a fleet of wildly different boats and a formula class ?

Right, the fact that at least in the latter all boats are certified and garanteed to adhere to a performance equilizing norm.



And lets view this case from the perspective of the other sailors. How would you feel if a non-compliant boat (on several accounts even) without a compliant measurement certificate where to be placed above you while sailing a truly fully compliant boat with all official papers in order ?

Would that be fair to you ?

Would giving so much slack to the F17 agent/dealor be fair to the say the Spitfire agent/dealor ?


Come on !

Wouter

Sue,
Twist it however you like but reading this thread it appears that Nacra are claiming victory in a regatta in which they were disqualified.

TRUE ?

They post their claims of VICTORY on their web site and it looks like their employees are working at misleading us regarding the validity of the real results.

From the information posted in this thread it appears that NACRA fronted up with a boat that had previously proven to be illegal.

The DSQ seems justified.

Meanwhile it seems that NACRA and employees are trying to deny the Spitfire manufacturers the glory of victory.

At the very least NACRA owe the Spitfire manufacturers a public apology.

[color:"red"] [This post is with my "cair of the SCHRS management group hat on"] [/color]

Sue or who ever you are

Protest of this sort usually go thus in other classes I've sailed:

1, Protest lodged and other party is informed that there is a protest based on the compliance of their boat with the class rules and or measurement certificate
2, Protest is then chcked to see if it is valid
3, Protest is then conducted.
4, Result of protest declared.


There was no bullying, a protest was lodged, it was conducted, they could not produce a valid certificate and they were DSQ'd.


If they had been present with a certificate, and the protest had been that the jib they were sailing with was not the jib detailed on the certificate, then the sail would need to be measured (by an ISAF measurer) to find out if it did measure to the dimentions on the certificate. In this case, I would expect that the current certificate, plus the results of the re-measurement would then be presented to a member of the SCHRS management group (details on the www.SCHRS.com website).

They would then take these data points, enter them into the SCHRS rating engine and produce an OFFICIAL certificate. This certificate would then be emailed / printed and given to the owner, or representative of the boat and this certificate would also be kept as part of the underlying documentation that backs up all new ratings that are on the SCHRS webiste. This certificate would indicate of the rating was within the 1.035 and 1.045 SCHRS rating required by F104.

I have yet to be provided with any valid data for me to calculate a rating for this boat.

Sue must have a gender confusion issue.......by night timeon the internet she is a trouble maker by the name of sue....by day he is a sailmaker for performance sails in the Netherlands....or is that really nacra...???

Now this all makes sense.....macca and sue are a team on the internet and a team at the regatta's....

I wonder if the nacra boss/s approve of this sort of behaviour.?

Clayton