The A-class is a development boat but after 30 years of development the class is stable and you can use the same boats for several years and still be able to finish close to the top. The original rule for the A-class was only length, beam and max sail area, but a min weight of 75 kg was added a couple of years ago to avoid the most fragile designs. Hydrofoils could give big speed gains and to keep the class stable a rule was added to keep them out. But all rules have loop holes and now an A-class builder managed to build " banana" shaped centerboards that was legal and that boat is sailing in the current A-class europeans. The boat is maybe 10% faster than the other boats!!!!

Good or bad for the class, what do you think?

/hakan

Good.

It is a development class or it isn't. Pics??

If it obsoletes a lot of boats, bad! The A class has been a very stable class lately and that is probably part of why people have bought into it. Most sailors wants stability to protect their investment. That is my thoughts..


PIIIIIIIICSSSSS! Pretty please?

I don't have any pictures yet but the design is done with a constant bending radius of 1.5 meters which gives and approximate angle at the tip of 45 degrees. The centerboard goes through the middle of the deck and extends through the center of the hull. I've talked to Marstrom today and there are a lot of discussions at the Europeans right now about this.

/hakan

I know that they have been used successfully with both the C-class and the Orma 60's. Who built the boat?

Checkout the one in the foreground, it looks a bit suspicious. Is that it? Do I win a prize? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> :

IMHO you take a risk when sailing a development class cat, and these things will happen.

Nils Bunkenberg is the designer and builder according to my sources. Bunkenberg saild with a similar boat this year and had excellent speed until he broke the centerboards. He switched to straigh centerboards and got "normal" speed. The centerboard slot in the hull is wide at the top and can use both straight and curved boards. They sailed against the boat today and when he pulled up the boards on the downwind he had the same speed as every one else but when he pushed them down he just walked away!

/hakan

It might make a lot of older obsolete boats competetive again
regards

Thare was a boat at the '05 worlds in France with banana boards. I don't recall that it was in the top finishers. Apparantly someone has refined the design since then. If it is large boost in speed for the average sailor, I can see it worth a refit. If it takes the top sailors to achieve the benefit from it then it's a moot point for me. I can't keep up with them using the current equipment.

Gordon

Exactly.
Fitting new cassettes require skill and the total cost isn't irrelevant. Still, the refit is relatively simple and probably inexpensive compared to a new sail (for example).

I say its a small chance that it will be a world beater.

Look at all the fuss over Ben Hall's solid wing sail, it wasnt faster in practice.

Clearly the class association has it's eye on growth of the class while maintaining a certain level of freedom of development. Foils were excluded when it was clear they were a large advantage. I bet the jury is still out on the Banana foils but if it does show a dramatic increase that is not easily retro-fittable to the existing fleet, I suspect the class will move away from them or develop a sub-class. Don't get excited yet.

Curses upon you horrible trouble makers!

Here are the current results:

http://cnbpp.free.fr/A_class/A_CLASS_A_EUROPEANS_2008.htm

Who's the one with the banana board?

GER 14 BAIER Bob


/hakan

Well if this does prove to be a real improvement in speed, then I would say that many of the top competitors in the class will look at modifying their boats. I though that Lars was playing with banana foils last year or the year before around the time that he convinced me to join the class. As to Ben's rig, I thought that downwind he was doing extremely well, but was struggling to find speed upwind and in certain wind conditions. I may have it bill, since you are active in the fleet and I am not.

This is merely someone's successful attempt (so far) to "take advantage" of an apparent loophole in the rule which was passed specifically to outlaw "lifting" boards, which at one time were being utilized by a few sailors to gain an advantage. In that case they were canted straight boards (I believe also asymmetric?). They offered a clear advantage but would have, it was felt, obsoleted all the current boats and increased costs considerably, neither of which was felt to be in the class's best interests at that time. Ben's wing shows promise- very fast on reach and quick downwind. But if it ever becomes a big advantage then, I agree, there will be either a "Super, open A class" and something like the current one, or wings will be outlawed. Remember "Wild Turkey"? The winged 18 sq meter? Totally killed the thriving open 18 sq class within a year. And wings are even "retrogradeable" but they are such a PITA!! Need special trailer (see pics of Ben's on various sites) and several people to assist raising/lowering which Ben did almost immediately upon hitting shore and didn't raise until time to leave beach. If you capsize and it gets water in it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
As mentioned, this is a "loophole" that will likely get closed at next class meeting. In the "A" history there are multiple examples of "special boats" being built for the World's which have, sometimes, proven very successful and if felt "bad" for the class the rules were changed and they disappeared- The reason there is a minimum weight rule is due to some well healed persons building flyweight, essentially "disposable" boats for the World's. Won too- so bingo! minimum weight rule passed. In fact the Flyer itself when it debuted at the World's was "new" and guess who had a large hand in designing that one and sailed it in it's first World's to great effect?? Right! Nils Bunkenburg! Class couldn't figure out how to outlaw a hull shape so now almost all boats since have been an attempt at modifying/improving that shape-- must have been pretty good since a Flyer2 won this year!

Kirt

Isn't this something we all want to see though? I mean development has to be done somewhere so we all can move forward, technology wise, right?

I would rather pay for (and use) banana boards, if they turn out to be superior, than build a wing sail, no doubt, but I'm glad there are some smart guys out there who will spend the time and money working on that stuff.

Somebody has to be first, right? Else we would all still be sailing Hobie 16's, not that there's anything wrong with that, but look at all the speed improvments since that boat came out. If the bananna boards turn out to be superior, would it cost all that much to buy (or build) a set? Or would the hulls need to be modified to accept the bend too? That might set you back a few bucks.

I don't see it as that big a threat, look at sail development, nobody was complaining when guys started building with mylar instead of dacron, even though mylar was lighter and held shape better, and it cost more, but now we are all using it. Would we want to go back to dacron mainsails?

Same goes for wing shaped masts, mid pole snuffers, T foil rudders, etc. so why not bananna boards?

Timbo,

development is good. However, radical development in an established class could obsolete a lot of boats. The members in that class could find it hard to sell their boats afterwards and the class might eventually fail. I am not saying that is a likely scenario for the A-cat class, I am speaking generally. It is all about what ones personal risk is. The owner of a competitive A-cat might have a different viewpoint on banana board development in the class then us outsiders.
When that have been said, I am very happy to hear that somebody are testing this. Good theoreticans have said that using banana boards to lift the hulls will generate more drag than without. Would be fun to hear that banana boards did work for small beachcats.

Darryl Barret asked a good question once. It was something like this: When you put beachcats on hydrofoils, is it still the same sport? I think that is a very good question and I dont have the answer.

My A is competitive on a local or regional scene but would not be competitive on a national or worlds scene. I own a boyer MKIV and prior to that a well built Waterat. I think that putting banana boards on might help the boat sail faster, if it would only improve my sailing abilities as well, I would have the modifications done. With that said, to use banana boards you do need to modify the trunks to the shape of the boards and this could easily be an expensive proccess. I am only guessing, but if I asked Lars to do this modification I am assuming that boards included this could cost between $2,000-$3,000. For me, that is not something that I would want to spend right now on the boat. I though am not sure that I am against this development. Whose boat is using the banana boards?