everytime something REALLY interesting is being tried we see the class for what it really is. Scared shitless of any REAL development.

I'm not angry at the A-class, but rather at a sizeable portion of its sailors who at some instances celebrate the open, cool, development nature of the A-class, but when a new thing is tried become hysterical and almost immediately start throwing about "obsolete old design" and "kill off the class if not banned" kind of statements.

That is why I have so little patience with scared sailors in the A-class. If ever they get the upper hand and lock the A into a given setup by adding more rules and banning real development then they will have struck the biggest blow to the A-class in its 40 year existance.

I do have a problem with you unsustained statements about the A Class and it's sailors such as....

you have a problem with me !

Now lets get back to curved foils discussion and factual statements. I certainly hope you're not out of those !

everytime something REALLY interesting is being tried we see the class for what it really is. Scared shitless of any REAL development.

I'm not angry at the A-class, but rather at a sizeable portion of its sailors who at some instances celebrate the open, cool, development nature of the A-class, but when a new thing is tried become hysterical and almost immediately start throwing about "obsolete old design" and "kill off the class if not banned" kind of statements.

That is why I have so little patience with scared sailors in the A-class. If ever they get the upper hand and lock the A into a given setup by adding more rules and banning real development then they will have struck the biggest blow to the A-class in its 40 year existance.

Stop baiting him........

BTW - you need a new signature now!!

"Land Lubber Alive" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Stop baiting him........

BTW - you need a new signature now!!

"Land Lubber Alive" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

who is storky?

You can't score 1,2 one day and then end up in the middle of the fleet the next and call it a ghost! The conditions was ligher when the boat ended up in the middle of the fleet.

The two extrems in the beach cat worlds are probably Hobie 16 and the C-class and they attract different kind of sailors. The A-class have moved from the "C-class" type towards the "Hobie 16" type the last years which means that some sailors has left the class and but more have joined it. If the A-class goes into a new development cycle it will move towards the "c-class" type again, the last time it happened was the wave piercing design. The question is if the class can take this "beating" again without losing to many sailors? Since the class has been stable for many years now it has attracted sailors that like to sail, not to build, and will those sailors stay until it has stabilized again?

/hakan

You can't score 1,2 one day and then end up in the middle of the fleet the next and call it a ghost! The conditions was ligher when the boat ended up in the middle of the fleet.

The two extrems in the beach cat worlds are probably Hobie 16 and the C-class and they attract different kind of sailors. The A-class have moved from the "C-class" type towards the "Hobie 16" type the last years which means that some sailors has left the class and but more have joined it. If the A-class goes into a new development cycle it will move towards the "c-class" type again, the last time it happened was the wave piercing design. The question is if the class can take this "beating" again without losing to many sailors? Since the class has been stable for many years now it has attracted sailors that like to sail, not to build, and will those sailors stay until it has stabilized again?

/hakan

So what about some information from one who actually was there and has curved dagger boards...

I was there and I just got a Nikita (designed and build by Nils Bunkenburg) with the curved boards.

First about the rules.
Hydrofoils are not allowed, and that means that you may not add a foil with the only purpose to generate lift.

Then there is the question about the dagger boards, cause all newer boats (maybe except the Marström) have canted dagger boards, and they will provide some kind of lift. You might even angle them a couple of degrease so they aren't parallel to your sailing direction, if you think that will give you an advantage.

The hydrofoil commission was formed in the IACA to look into this matter, and in 2006 they came out with this text:

"Measurement control

The extreme beam shall not be more than:
2.3 meters (7 ft 6½ inches)

The beam shall be measured at right angles to the centre line of the craft at the widest point and including all fixed or adjustable
apparatus with the exception of a normally accepted trapeze or retractable seat. (adjustable apparatus such as foils must be measured both completely down and completely up flush with the bottom of the
hull). In addition, no part of each hull or the respective fixed or adjustable apparatus shall come closer together than 1.5 meters below the static waterline. If necessary the static water line shall be found by floating the boat fully equipped without the sailor on board."

During their work it had been in the text that boards should be straight, but they took this out of the text - SO THIS HAS BEEN CONSIDERED...

Therefore as things are today, CURVED BOARDS ARE LEGAL. The text about measuring the boards “flush with the bottom” should take care of T-shaped boards, as they won’t be able to be flush bottom.

The Boats.
The boat on the pictures in earlier posts is not the Nikita, it's the Martin Fisher boat, and it has take a more radical approach placing curved dagger boards in front of the beam and even making them self tacking in a lose case. It had some fairly good races and some not so good. I really don't think that's the boat everybody got so scared of.

Then there are the Nikitas. We where 3 of them at the Europeans. Two of them where finished by Nils Bunkenburg (Jörg Horns and my own) and our dagger boards leave the hull vertically, meaning the case is in the center at the bottom and further towards the middle of the boat at the top of the hull. These are not as extreme as Bob's where. The top and bottom openings are more or less over each other on he’s boat, taking the tips of the boards closer to the allowed 1,5 meter than on my boat.
Looking at the effect I think the conclusion is simple. In perfect conditions (as in a test tank) curved dagger boards are an advantage, but the more extreme you do it, the worse they get as you move away from ideal conditions. In light air (at low speed) you will drift more sideways. In choppy conditions you will have more turbulence. But in ideal conditions - you are slightly better of.

The racing area:
Conditions where quite special. Usually one side of the course had a huge advantage due to tide currant at wind shifts, and if you got the best start and went to the side that had the advantage, you had a great lead. Not being able to challenge the leaders by going the other way on the next upwind makes it difficult for the fleet to challenge the leaders if they are good sailors.

The results:
I can only speak for my self, but at the last Europeans in 2007 and the worlds in 2006 I was battling with Chris Field where we where always at a tie before the last race. This year he was 5 points in front of me before the last race, where I managed to turn it around. So no changes there. Last year I often sailed faster that Donald Beinke who ended up in front of me here. So no really big changes for me.

Maybe we should stop blaming the success of Bob in a couple of races on the boards entirely and maybe give him some credit for sailing well and setting he's boat up perfectly for the conditions and trimming he's new sail well. He's not a nobody in sailing who suddenly makes a good result!

About the rules:
Let's keep the rules open. If the rules had been narrowed in every time someone got faster then the rest, the A-Class would still be a wooden boat with a triangular Dacon sail and non of us would care to race it. Let's remember why we where attracted to the class in the first place...

Regards Thomas Paasch