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Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: windswept] #147040
06/28/08 02:53 PM
06/28/08 02:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
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windswept  Offline
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New Hampshire, USA
Beyond that, if you look back at photos from the 2006 Worlds and Glenn Ashby's geltek Flyer, it would appear that he had canted boards at that time.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: windswept] #147041
06/28/08 03:31 PM
06/28/08 03:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Hakan Frojdh Offline OP
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Hakan Frojdh  Offline OP
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Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
If the A-class descide to allow "banana" boards there will be changes all over the boat until it has reached the same level of refinement as the current boats. Imagine the number of foil designs that needs to be tested combined with position and hull shape. The changes needed will make the boat even more expensive once it is stable, but the big problem is to convince the sailors to stay until things are stable again.

I doubt that you will be able to compete and top level with a modified boat. You will probably need to move the trunk and make reinforcements around the trunk since there will be other types of loads from the board.

The best thing is to have a ballot and check what the sailors in the class want. If they sailors thinks banana boards are ok I think we should concider another option, to remove the foil ban completely. The banana boards are using a loop hole in the rule, and it might be a more expensive solution than to have full freedom when designing foils.

/hakan

Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #147042
06/28/08 04:20 PM
06/28/08 04:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
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New Hampshire, USA
Hakan,

What is your boat now?


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #147043
06/28/08 04:26 PM
06/28/08 04:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
I agree with you Haken, and I also think a full up T foiler, board and rudder, would be cheaper and easier to build and maybe easier to make go fast as well. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


Blade F16
#777
Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: Timbo] #147044
06/28/08 05:16 PM
06/28/08 05:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
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New Hampshire, USA
I know that dave carlson has an older Cal Fuller on foils. I think it is a Cal Fuller. Lars Guck was also playing with foils for an A at the time that they were banned. As far as the loophole is concerned, everyone should have seen this coming because lifting foils were not banned. Hydrofoils were. The reason for the banana foils coming into existence was simply to have a lifting foil that did not exceed the B-Max of the class rules whether it was on A's, C's or Orma 60's. Canting daggerboards had limited lift capabilities especially when you could not exceed the B-Max. To do so meant that you shortened the beams if you desired a greater angle of attack on the blades.
8. Hydrofoils are permitted.



The following rule was passed by ballot 28th February1998 and will take effect from 1st April 1998:



9. Minimum weight in full sailing trim shall be not less than 75 kilograms.



The following rule was passed by ballot August 15, 2001:



10. Hydrofoils shall not be permitted in ‘A’ Division. (Approved 2001)


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: windswept] #147045
06/28/08 07:59 PM
06/28/08 07:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
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I don't believe this is new. One of the Dutch boats at the 2006 Sweden Worlds had banana boards. It was measured and allowed to sail.

The only boats at that worlds that had measurement issues were the ones where the top of the centreboard case was at the extreme beam and the board at an angle. Meant that when the board was raised it was outside the max beam and part of the board was still in the water.

But the banana board boat wasn't any quicker and Ashby won all races (except for last which he didn't sail) on the Flyer 2.

Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: taipanfc] #147046
06/28/08 08:41 PM
06/28/08 08:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 190
lesburn1 Offline
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lesburn1  Offline
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Posts: 190
Here's a good shot of the CB in question.
[Linked Image]


lesburn1.blogspot.com

A-Cat USA 49
18Sq 49

member- Royal Society for Making Cool Stuff
Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: lesburn1] #147047
06/28/08 08:47 PM
06/28/08 08:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 190
lesburn1 Offline
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lesburn1  Offline
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Posts: 190
I more interested in the amount of twist this boat has, that can't be a good thing.
[Linked Image]


lesburn1.blogspot.com

A-Cat USA 49
18Sq 49

member- Royal Society for Making Cool Stuff
Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: taipanfc] #147048
06/28/08 08:50 PM
06/28/08 08:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 255
NZ
R
RetiredGeek Offline
enthusiast
RetiredGeek  Offline
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R

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 255
NZ
If you look at the pic, the board is a long ways forward as it should be so that its infront of the LCG or the board will just lift the stern for zero advantage.
[Linked Image]

To balance this forward position you have to increase the area of the rudders to drag the lateral centroid aft so you don't have a bad case of weather helm. An example would be the foiling moths where the rudder is the same chord as the board and just 2-300mm shorter, plus its on a gantry which helps also.
The net result is that you have nixed your light air performance with the added wetted area and made the boat a bit more difficult to tack.

What looks like a good solution for the use of banana boards comes from VPLP and the WSL boats that (see below) that I believe should be launched next month.
[Linked Image]

The web site is web page

Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #147049
06/28/08 10:20 PM
06/28/08 10:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Quote
When you put beachcats on hydrofoils, is it still the same sport?


When you split the hull in two parts and place them far apart, is it still the same sport?

When you put a Moth on hydrofoils, is it still the same sport?

I believe the three cases are evolutions within the sport.

However, this is not enough to justify a rule change allowing hydrofoils in the A Class. The situation of boats/people who would not upgrade for any reason has to be considered, as well as the development time to return to "state of the art" level.

The loophole being exploited at this level only means that beachcats with asymetric foils will eventually become popular. The A Class can choose 'to be or not to be' the first ones.


Luiz
Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: windswept] #147050
06/28/08 10:50 PM
06/28/08 10:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
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dacarls  Offline
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Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
I know for a fact that changing out the daggerboard trunks in an A-cat of ANY age costs a bit more than $1000. The shape of the hole won't change that cost very much. New symmetrical 70 mm boards are about $1000 per pair. Banana boards might cost a bit more than that, but you might have a competitive boat again for 2+K dollars, then adding a good sail. This seems like a fantastic bargain to me, noting that some sailing skill is involved.
The wingsail is pretty to look at, but rather like Paris Hilton, I wouldn't want to own one, class legal or not.


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: dacarls] #147051
06/29/08 01:13 AM
06/29/08 01:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Hakan Frojdh Offline OP
enthusiast
Hakan Frojdh  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
The "foiling" boat had normal speed yesterday, probably due to lower wind speeds. There are several boats wind banana boards in the Europeans and they are positioned on different places on the boat, but the most successfull boat has the board close to the normal position.

/hakan

Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #147052
06/30/08 05:26 AM
06/30/08 05:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

I seem to remember many tirades on this forum on how the A-cat had only a few very open rules and allowed "fantastic" development and modification of boat and that it was therefor the king of all cat classes.

Yet, everytime something REALLY interesting is being tried we see the class for what it really is. Scared shitless of any REAL development.

Now I don't mind if the class decides to progress either way (development or a strictly controlled class) but can we please also cut the BS about the A's being such an open class with only 3 to 4 class rules (length, width, weight, sailara area) ?

Personally I always felt the A-cat anti-foil rules were insufficient in preventing any projects in this direction. The definitions were not precise enough and left open alot of grey area.

Personally I would not even have any trouble if canted or curved boards were to be introduced in the more strict formula classes like F18's and F16's. If it works it works and as somebody else has said. We already allow alot of sail design and rig changes, why disallow boards changes ? Such a thing almost resembles a double standard.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: Wouter] #147053
06/30/08 06:07 AM
06/30/08 06:07 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Quote

I seem to remember many tirades on this forum on how the A-cat had only a few very open rules and allowed "fantastic" development and modification of boat and that it was therefor the king of all cat classes.

Yet, everytime something REALLY interesting is being tried we see the class for what it really is. Scared shitless of any REAL development.

Now I don't mind if the class decides to progress either way (development or a strictly controlled class) but can we please also cut the BS about the A's being such an open class with only 3 to 4 class rules (length, width, weight, sailara area) ?

Personally I always felt the A-cat anti-foil rules were insufficient in preventing any projects in this direction. The definitions were not precise enough and left open alot of grey area.

Personally I would not even have any trouble if canted or curved boards were to be introduced in the more strict formula classes like F18's and F16's. If it works it works and as somebody else has said. We already allow alot of sail design and rig changes, why disallow boards changes ? Such a thing almost resembles a double standard.

Wouter


Yes, would be great to see them introduced to the F16 class. It would be better if they prove far superiour to the other F16s and imediatly obsolete ther rest of the fleet. Should make a lot of happy current F16 owners. Should be really benifical to the growth of the class also.

Oh and Doug.... Sorry Wouter

STFU


Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #147054
06/30/08 07:03 AM
06/30/08 07:03 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
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Posts: 539
Wouter, what is with the 'holier than thou' attitude? Seems to be quite a few tirades in the F16 class in the past few months. Maybe sort out your own house first before casting stones.

Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: taipanfc] #147055
06/30/08 07:08 AM
06/30/08 07:08 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
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Posts: 539
But to keep this thread on track, what position did the hydrofoil boat finish? And what range of conditions did it excel and what range did it not?

Seems to some information coming out of France, but the reporting is quite crap really compared to the last worlds in Florida.

But if the banana board/hydrofoil boat seems to work, will this change the actual design of the A. Perhaps no need for wave-piercing as the hydrofoil holds the boat up. Or even further reductions on hull size may come into fruition. This would certainly reduce windage and increase performance.

Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: taipanfc] #147056
06/30/08 07:09 AM
06/30/08 07:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
So it's not just me.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: Wouter] #147057
06/30/08 07:14 AM
06/30/08 07:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote

I seem to remember many tirades on this forum on how the A-cat had only a few very open rules and allowed "fantastic" development and modification of boat and that it was therefor the king of all cat classes.

Yet, everytime something REALLY interesting is being tried we see the class for what it really is. Scared shitless of any REAL development.

Now I don't mind if the class decides to progress either way (development or a strictly controlled class) but can we please also cut the BS about the A's being such an open class with only 3 to 4 class rules (length, width, weight, sailara area) ?

Personally I always felt the A-cat anti-foil rules were insufficient in preventing any projects in this direction. The definitions were not precise enough and left open alot of grey area.

Personally I would not even have any trouble if canted or curved boards were to be introduced in the more strict formula classes like F18's and F16's. If it works it works and as somebody else has said. We already allow alot of sail design and rig changes, why disallow boards changes ? Such a thing almost resembles a double standard.

Wouter


Which is it? A) The rules leave "open a lot of gray area" or that B) the A-cat rules stifle development as you so eloquently put it; "cut the BS about the A's being such an open class"? You present both opposing opinions as evidence for the basis of your argument which leads me to believe you are simply angry about something. The rules are incredibly simple - I believe there are 9 in total and they'll fit on one sheet of paper and they do leave open a lot of room for creativity.

The foil rule was undoubtedly left gray so that it wouldn't completely stifle development.

Go crap on your own parade.

Clearly the interest here is, as in F18 and should be in F16, to present a moderate and acceptable progression of development such that it keeps things interesting but doesn't price people out of the class. Whether you like it or not, the organization has some responsibility to the people and opinions they represent.


Jake Kohl
Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: dacarls] #147058
06/30/08 07:17 AM
06/30/08 07:17 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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bvining  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
Code
  changing out the daggerboard trunks in an A-cat of ANY age costs a bit more than $1000. 


I built my boat this way to allow for any future boards which might require more room in the trunk. Changing boards would be a simple process and the only cost would be for the slot at the top and bottom of the trunk.

As far as the Ben Hall wing sail, I saw some recent pictures of him sailing a soft sail, the word was that the wing pitched too much in any kind of chop.

Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems! [Re: Jake] #147059
06/30/08 07:19 AM
06/30/08 07:19 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

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Melbourne, Australia
Latest image of Wouter

[Linked Image]


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