| Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems!
[Re: windswept]
#147040 06/28/08 02:53 PM 06/28/08 02:53 PM |
Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 613 New Hampshire, USA windswept
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Posts: 613 New Hampshire, USA | Beyond that, if you look back at photos from the 2006 Worlds and Glenn Ashby's geltek Flyer, it would appear that he had canted boards at that time.
Tom Siders A-Cat USA-79 Tornado US775
| | | Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems!
[Re: Hakan Frojdh]
#147043 06/28/08 04:26 PM 06/28/08 04:26 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | I agree with you Haken, and I also think a full up T foiler, board and rudder, would be cheaper and easier to build and maybe easier to make go fast as well. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems!
[Re: Timbo]
#147044 06/28/08 05:16 PM 06/28/08 05:16 PM |
Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 613 New Hampshire, USA windswept
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Posts: 613 New Hampshire, USA | I know that dave carlson has an older Cal Fuller on foils. I think it is a Cal Fuller. Lars Guck was also playing with foils for an A at the time that they were banned. As far as the loophole is concerned, everyone should have seen this coming because lifting foils were not banned. Hydrofoils were. The reason for the banana foils coming into existence was simply to have a lifting foil that did not exceed the B-Max of the class rules whether it was on A's, C's or Orma 60's. Canting daggerboards had limited lift capabilities especially when you could not exceed the B-Max. To do so meant that you shortened the beams if you desired a greater angle of attack on the blades. 8. Hydrofoils are permitted.
The following rule was passed by ballot 28th February1998 and will take effect from 1st April 1998:
9. Minimum weight in full sailing trim shall be not less than 75 kilograms.
The following rule was passed by ballot August 15, 2001:
10. Hydrofoils shall not be permitted in ‘A’ Division. (Approved 2001)
Tom Siders A-Cat USA-79 Tornado US775
| | | Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems!
[Re: taipanfc]
#147048 06/28/08 08:50 PM 06/28/08 08:50 PM |
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 255 NZ RetiredGeek
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Posts: 255 NZ | If you look at the pic, the board is a long ways forward as it should be so that its infront of the LCG or the board will just lift the stern for zero advantage. To balance this forward position you have to increase the area of the rudders to drag the lateral centroid aft so you don't have a bad case of weather helm. An example would be the foiling moths where the rudder is the same chord as the board and just 2-300mm shorter, plus its on a gantry which helps also. The net result is that you have nixed your light air performance with the added wetted area and made the boat a bit more difficult to tack. What looks like a good solution for the use of banana boards comes from VPLP and the WSL boats that (see below) that I believe should be launched next month. The web site is web page | | | Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems!
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#147049 06/28/08 10:20 PM 06/28/08 10:20 PM |
Joined: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
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Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay | When you put beachcats on hydrofoils, is it still the same sport? When you split the hull in two parts and place them far apart, is it still the same sport? When you put a Moth on hydrofoils, is it still the same sport? I believe the three cases are evolutions within the sport. However, this is not enough to justify a rule change allowing hydrofoils in the A Class. The situation of boats/people who would not upgrade for any reason has to be considered, as well as the development time to return to "state of the art" level. The loophole being exploited at this level only means that beachcats with asymetric foils will eventually become popular. The A Class can choose 'to be or not to be' the first ones.
Luiz
| | | Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems!
[Re: windswept]
#147050 06/28/08 10:50 PM 06/28/08 10:50 PM |
Joined: Apr 2002 Posts: 805 Gainesville, FL 32607 USA dacarls
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Posts: 805 Gainesville, FL 32607 USA | I know for a fact that changing out the daggerboard trunks in an A-cat of ANY age costs a bit more than $1000. The shape of the hole won't change that cost very much. New symmetrical 70 mm boards are about $1000 per pair. Banana boards might cost a bit more than that, but you might have a competitive boat again for 2+K dollars, then adding a good sail. This seems like a fantastic bargain to me, noting that some sailing skill is involved. The wingsail is pretty to look at, but rather like Paris Hilton, I wouldn't want to own one, class legal or not.
Dacarls: A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16 "Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
| | | Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems!
[Re: Hakan Frojdh]
#147052 06/30/08 05:26 AM 06/30/08 05:26 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | I seem to remember many tirades on this forum on how the A-cat had only a few very open rules and allowed "fantastic" development and modification of boat and that it was therefor the king of all cat classes.
Yet, everytime something REALLY interesting is being tried we see the class for what it really is. Scared shitless of any REAL development.
Now I don't mind if the class decides to progress either way (development or a strictly controlled class) but can we please also cut the BS about the A's being such an open class with only 3 to 4 class rules (length, width, weight, sailara area) ?
Personally I always felt the A-cat anti-foil rules were insufficient in preventing any projects in this direction. The definitions were not precise enough and left open alot of grey area.
Personally I would not even have any trouble if canted or curved boards were to be introduced in the more strict formula classes like F18's and F16's. If it works it works and as somebody else has said. We already allow alot of sail design and rig changes, why disallow boards changes ? Such a thing almost resembles a double standard.
Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems!
[Re: Wouter]
#147053 06/30/08 06:07 AM 06/30/08 06:07 AM |
Joined: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia Tornado_ALIVE
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Posts: 1,669 Melbourne, Australia | I seem to remember many tirades on this forum on how the A-cat had only a few very open rules and allowed "fantastic" development and modification of boat and that it was therefor the king of all cat classes.
Yet, everytime something REALLY interesting is being tried we see the class for what it really is. Scared shitless of any REAL development.
Now I don't mind if the class decides to progress either way (development or a strictly controlled class) but can we please also cut the BS about the A's being such an open class with only 3 to 4 class rules (length, width, weight, sailara area) ?
Personally I always felt the A-cat anti-foil rules were insufficient in preventing any projects in this direction. The definitions were not precise enough and left open alot of grey area.
Personally I would not even have any trouble if canted or curved boards were to be introduced in the more strict formula classes like F18's and F16's. If it works it works and as somebody else has said. We already allow alot of sail design and rig changes, why disallow boards changes ? Such a thing almost resembles a double standard.
Wouter
Yes, would be great to see them introduced to the F16 class. It would be better if they prove far superiour to the other F16s and imediatly obsolete ther rest of the fleet. Should make a lot of happy current F16 owners. Should be really benifical to the growth of the class also. Oh and Doug.... Sorry Wouter STFU | | | Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems!
[Re: taipanfc]
#147056 06/30/08 07:09 AM 06/30/08 07:09 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA |
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems!
[Re: Wouter]
#147057 06/30/08 07:14 AM 06/30/08 07:14 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | I seem to remember many tirades on this forum on how the A-cat had only a few very open rules and allowed "fantastic" development and modification of boat and that it was therefor the king of all cat classes.
Yet, everytime something REALLY interesting is being tried we see the class for what it really is. Scared shitless of any REAL development.
Now I don't mind if the class decides to progress either way (development or a strictly controlled class) but can we please also cut the BS about the A's being such an open class with only 3 to 4 class rules (length, width, weight, sailara area) ?
Personally I always felt the A-cat anti-foil rules were insufficient in preventing any projects in this direction. The definitions were not precise enough and left open alot of grey area.
Personally I would not even have any trouble if canted or curved boards were to be introduced in the more strict formula classes like F18's and F16's. If it works it works and as somebody else has said. We already allow alot of sail design and rig changes, why disallow boards changes ? Such a thing almost resembles a double standard.
Wouter
Which is it? A) The rules leave "open a lot of gray area" or that B) the A-cat rules stifle development as you so eloquently put it; "cut the BS about the A's being such an open class"? You present both opposing opinions as evidence for the basis of your argument which leads me to believe you are simply angry about something. The rules are incredibly simple - I believe there are 9 in total and they'll fit on one sheet of paper and they do leave open a lot of room for creativity. The foil rule was undoubtedly left gray so that it wouldn't completely stifle development. Go crap on your own parade. Clearly the interest here is, as in F18 and should be in F16, to present a moderate and acceptable progression of development such that it keeps things interesting but doesn't price people out of the class. Whether you like it or not, the organization has some responsibility to the people and opinions they represent.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: A-class has hydrofoil problems!
[Re: dacarls]
#147058 06/30/08 07:17 AM 06/30/08 07:17 AM |
Joined: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,226 Atlanta bvining
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Posts: 1,226 Atlanta | changing out the daggerboard trunks in an A-cat of ANY age costs a bit more than $1000. I built my boat this way to allow for any future boards which might require more room in the trunk. Changing boards would be a simple process and the only cost would be for the slot at the top and bottom of the trunk. As far as the Ben Hall wing sail, I saw some recent pictures of him sailing a soft sail, the word was that the wing pitched too much in any kind of chop. | | |
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