I've seen posts related to an exorbitant increase in the price of carbon mast for the N20. A few questions:

1. What is the basis for this increase in price? Is it solely the carbon fiber that has driven up the cost? If Southern Spars is still the manufacturer, are they built in the Rhode Island facility, or elswhere and shipped here?

2. I liked the carbon mast, as it seemed a little more resistant to stupidity than a comprable weight aluminum mast. Is this really the case, or is an aluminum mast equally as abuse resistant as carbon (by weight)? Like when the mainsheet lets go with the spin up....

3. If shipping costs are the true culprit, is there any feasable way to produce a two-piece mast (either aluminum or carbon) that would help keep this cost down?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber

During the 1970s, experimental work to find alternative raw materials led to the introduction of carbon fibers made from a petroleum pitch derived from oil processing. These fibers contained about 85% carbon and had excellent flexural strength

Just in case you have not been keeping up on current events, the price of oil is going through the roof. Other oil based products like plastic are having similar increases.

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There is no aluminum mast anywhere for a Nacra 20 nor plans to make one. I'm not sure what they are planning, if anything, to address the price of the carbon stick but I'll try to ask that question tonight.



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Would a domestic supplier be any cheaper? If so, then it really IS the shipping costs that are pushing the price up, not so much the carbon or labor costs...

Could mast builders propose some quotes for building to PC for evaluation? THey could probalby place a bulk order for, say, 500 masts and then just pay a small charge for inventory storage. PC probably has relatively good data on how many masts they've had to buy each year, and could probably develop some idea of how many they'd use per year.

I would have thought this would be one of their criteria for licensing builder(s). Get the bulk rate on a production run, rather than having to place individual orders each time someone calls.

And if shipping it from Southern Spars to PC, and then to the customer adds so much cost, why not send the blank from Southern Spars (or whatever manufacturer) to the local authorized dealer directly and have them fit out to one design specs? That's why they're an "authorized dealer", right?

500 masts?! How many 20s do you think they sell?

But seriously, how much is a Marstrom T mast? I heard somewhere around 6k+shipping. Sweden is probably one of the most expensive places for labour and benefits so I don't understand the $11k price.. Shipping can't be that expensive. Southern Spars must have a container coming to NA on a regular basis.

Also I heard that other suppliers are selling A class carbon masts for $3k..I don't believe that there isn't anyone in the US that can build this mast for a lot less.

What I really don't understand is that the cost of the whole boat itself isn't that much more than an Infusion and yet the huge cost of the mast compared to the Infusion mast.

This cost won't help the class, but even if they got the price of the mast down by half, how much do you think the cost of the boat would drop?

And even if the cost of the 20 dropped by say $3000 would new N20 sales go up that much? Probably not. What other 20 foot boats are there out now that have a class? Tornado ok but for how long? Just speculation...

Is the $11k price tag of the mast an accurate reflection of the wholesale cost of the mast or is PC, jacking the price up knowing there is no other source available for a new mast and a customer has only a couple choices....suck it up and pay for a mast, buy a whole new boat, or give up on the 20 altogether and switch to another class.

$3k for an A-class mast is just for the bare tube...doesn't include all the fittings, etc. or the labor to fitout. Plus they use a fraction of the carbon that goes into a N-20 mast....just put them on a scale sometime.

It's not like the mast is a perishable item like lettuce...

I guess it would take a little math to figure out if it's cheaper to buy a big batch of them and store them vs. buying them onsee-twosee...

So, if they only sell 20 new boats a year, and people only break aobut 10 masts, maybe buy a lot of 100 masts and expect to turn over that inventory every 3 years?

Are there any other classes that could use the same mast blank? Maybe share the resource there?

It dpends which A-Cat mast you get. I believe as of yesterday, the Hall mast was $2,950 for the bar tube. It will still run over $3,000 but you do have $550 to begin fitting out the mast. Joe can you email me at my work address which you should still have with information about Peter's new sails; specs, costs and any other pertinant information. Thanks!

Current list price for a complete mast is 3188EUR (ex taxes); Local price is 3985EUR

3985EUR is about 5700USD

Hello Jay,

Check your pm box.

Regards,
Hans

Got it. THanks!

Is it true (mentioned somewhere else) that the N20 mast is taller than the Tornado mast?

Yes it's true. 32'

Tornado mast is 9.2 meters, 30.18 feet.

How many N20 masts have broken? Other than in the surf? A common thing to do is repair an A Class mast. Have any N20 mast been successfully repaired?

I broke an I20 mast at the Nationals at Tybee Island a few years ago. Heavy air. Came around A mark and started moving well but stuffed the bow hard and the mast snapped from the shock load. Main was still sheeted I never blew it. So it can happen.

I've seen a Hobie Tiger mast snap too.

I've personally snapped a Hobie 20 mast in big waves reaching with too much weight on the boat. I'll call that one my fault.

Mike Hill - Snapper of masts.
N20 #1005

Mine went exactly the same way on a rough day on the Dutch coast. hell of a bang!

This past weekend we had a chinese gybe in 20+ winds and during the gybe the mainsheet came out of the cleat and ALL the sheet came out with the spin full. The mast held strong.

I was very suprised I wasn't dishing out $11k for that mistake.

$11k for an Inter 20 rig? Wow.

I'm investigating finding a suitable carbon rig platform to replace the alum Hobie Tiger rig used on an Open570 sportboat monohull (28' rig). I looked at the Tornado Rig and it seems suitable, @3200 Euro but shipping is difficult. Could anyone recommend what class of cat has a readily available (in the US) carbon rig between 28' and 32' high?

Do you think the move from aluminum to carbon is a big deal on boats this size.

Call Forte composites in Bristol Rhode Island.

They have a mandrel from a Tornado Teardrop mast and they have built carbon sticks of various size for one off projects like yours.

Thanks Mark. Great lead. I didn't realize that they had that mandrel.

Are you talking about our boats or your boats?

On our boats its absolutely a big deal. Mast bend, and righting moment gained due to the carbon stick are great!

Any boat. I went through the conversion from alum to carbon (Marstrom custom rig) on a 41' custom morelli cat and the gains were amazing. I haven't been tracking the smaller cats lately so not too sure of the trends there. I was surprised that some of the newer cats are back to alum like the Infusion and Tiger. I was wondering if the alum rigs have somehow gotten better to the point where carbon (cost) is not making sense in the smaller rigs. Someone tried to make the case to me that you can't translate gains in larger rigs to smaller boats and I can't buy that, so just wanted some validation from someone who has felt the difference on this sized rig.

well the F18 class rules have an aluminum mast as their class rules.

I imagine the motivation for that is cost-savings and arms race dis-incentivizing.

Personally I love my carbon mast, I hate the replacement cost if it goes snap.

Your "replacement cost" for a new N20 mast should only be $500 if you choose to purchase insurance....

If indeed the masts cost $11k, I think the insurance is a "no-brainer". What's the annual premium? $220 USD? And it covers liability to boot....

Check that the insurance company will cover a carbon mast...some won't, particularly if it is $11k!

Wasn't aware that some carriers exclude the mast... The policies I've read are silent (which means they'd ordinarily cover stuff like that), although I have seen some policies exclude racing activities...

So, if the mast is excluded on your policy, it wouldn't be covered even if it were broken by some peril other than sailing? Like lightning or windstorm?

At the cost of the mast, the insurance company may decide your boat is a write-off instead. If similar boats of a similar age are selling for less than the cost of the repairs...

Didn't think of that. If the mast is $11k and the whole boat is only $22k, then if the mast breaks the adjuster could write it off as a total loss.... Depending on the adjuster, I guess...

With the carbon stick, it's up to $26,000 us.

The mast repair cost will be compared against your boat's current worth, not the new price. If comparable boats of the same age are selling for, say, 10-15k, you may need to take the money and buy the boat back as salvage, then try to get a used stick or repair the broken one. Older boats will be even more on the bubble.

out of curiosity has the price dropped in line with the cost of the raw materials?

I was quoted 4,000.00 USD for a 32' A-Cat tube from Hall last September.

NACRA must really have a good reason for making the carbon masts obsolete. When Hall or even Marstrom can build them cheaper than NACRA, something really strange must go on.

A custom aluminium extrusion costs approx US $3 per pound. What does a bare nacra mast weight?