Dear MTowell...Thanks mate..
That is true.. AHPC/Pro Sail as we have done for a long time here. But also do Twincats, Nacras, the Vectorworks Blade and our own home-built Blade.

We like the Blade, its a good boat its just that a 'big' manufacturer never picked it up - apart from Vector. So its a shame there aren't more of them around. That's why I think a story about the Hybrid v's Vector Works Balde will be a good one.

You're very welcome to bring your Blade up for a face-off.. that would be good. If you decide to really do it, we have 2 seasons. If you come in July we'll have decent cat regatta at Raffles Marina with a SW Monsoon (10 - 15 knots). Or, come in January for our Monsoon Cat Cup at Changi Sialing Club and our Northeast Monsoon (15 - 20 knots).

Oh and the water temperature is always 24 degrees C!

Yep Euro Trax are good and worth every penny!

Weight, will re-weigh but our only facility here and now is... level floor and three bathroom scales. So plus minus it'll do...

Personally, as long as the boats around 125 kgs I'm happy... the rest is in the sailing. I do know of a Taipan with carbon everything... but he still loses out through bad sailing! But he likes it and that's the point...

Hey JJ
THanks for your patience with the whole string - you started a good one.

At the end of the day, buy the boat which turns you on. It's more than just spec's etc... Like my Ducati i think its great... others loathe it!

They're all good...

DucatiScott, Why don't Pro sail import the Aussie Blade from Adelaide? This would have to be cheaper than bringing in the Vector works Blade from America.

landing in big surf with an onshore wind is not easy. However in most othet condistions I don't have problems.

Where I sail (a lake) we have a couple of people who use a small bouy with about 20kg of weights on a rope; before they launch they take this buoy out 20 feet or so and drop it. When they come in they tie the boat to this while they get their trolley. Job done.

Whatever boat you sail single handed will be subjected to beach abuse if you don't plan things ahead. Getting that beach trolley to the boat before the waves and rocks do is just one of those down sides of sailing solo. Good planing before launching is a must. The upside of solo sailing is that you can go sailing whenever you want and not when your crew wants.

Whatever modern designed cat you choose is simply not going to be able to take on rocks and sharp objects, fibreglass taking on something harder than itself is a one way contest, so why bother to beef up the boat to "maybe" be tougher on its bottom which in turn dramatically increase the weight which then reduces the options for one person to move it about on the beach. That extra 30 or so kilos is the point at about which my back suddenly starts to object and my legs are no longer able to push weights about. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am member of a sailing club with mast up storage. It is just 20 minutes to drive to the club from our home. At the club there is a concrete ramp protected by breakwaters and two beaches. The ramp has a thick cover of synthetic grass, just like they use on some football fields. Go in, round up and take the boat up the ramp. Get the wheels, all done and no damage to the boat. Belonging to a club have its definate advantages.

geez, that sounds nice.

Good idea

I'm afraid so. North-West European people are also the tallest in the world. Guys under 30 overhere are on average 1.90 mtr tall (6 ft 3 inches), Typicall bodyweights associated with that length are 75-90 kg.

Of course there are exceptions, but generally speaking this is the way the playing field has been layed down/

Wouter

JJ,

With respect to beach parking when singlehanding.

Of the 3 to 4 F16 owners at my club (1 is a regular visitor) we all just sail our boats up the beach, turn it into the wind and then leasurely walk to our beachwheels that are parked above the flood line.

Of course we have SANDY beaches and any rock would damage your hulls, same with rocky beaches. Still, very much the same problems will be had with any other modern boat like the FX-one, F17 (inter-17) and F18's. The latter part is often forgotten. No modern foam core hull design with a round or flat keel will take to rocky beaches or a concrete ramp without denting or cracking.

I think that alot of myths are maintained around lightweight boats. Most of the weight savings come from parts that never touch the beach. The F18 cast alu rudderstocks weight 3 kg a piece, our F16 bend extruded alu pipe stocks come in under 0.50 kg a piece. There in nothing that an additional 2.5 kg on the rudder stock does in avoiding wear of damage on your hulls when beaching ! It is the same with many other components.

It you have rocky beaches, then you have to find a solution if you want to have any modern catamaran irrespectibally of brand. Will has found his solution, in Greece they anchor a bouy where the water is buttock deep and you hook the anchor line to the bridle leaving the rigged boat to weathervane. You then take down the sails and get the beach dolly and fit the folly with the boat on the water. I know that other people with ramps, lower the mainsail and sail in under jib or peddle their way to the ramp. Many people have found their own solutions as I did when I sailed that bloody 49-er skiff. Now that boat is a headache to launch and retrieve !

If none of these solutions work for you then you are not sailing in a locale where of the beach sailing is viable. It ends somewhere !

I always compare it to bicycles, you don't go mountain biking with a tour-de-France-bike or the other way around. So you plan your route accordingly and with planning most problems can be solved.

Wouter

Laying down a section of articifial grass is actually a good idea. That stuff is cheap and very durable and will remain in place when wet. Sort of making your own glassy ramp on a rocky shore.

Of course before I forget. Don't sail solo off a downwind rocky beach with a breaking surf, that is asking for trouble.

Wouter

I have been around the block here in Europe, and I would think the norm to be more around 1.8m and 65-100+ kgs due to high carbohydrate intake.
Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Average_adult_height_around_the_world

Netherlands male : 184.8 cm (6' 0.8") female : 168.7 cm (5' 6.4") ages 20–30 Measured 2004

Singapore male : 172.0 cm (5' 7.8") female : 160 cm (5' 3") ages 17–25 2003 [53]


13 cm difference makes a difference of 11.5 kg when using the Body Mass Index formula with factor 25 (= upper clinically healthy limit). When using averages we difference will still be 10 kg per person

In effect, a 2-up Dutch crew will weight 20 kg more then a typical 2-up crew from Singapore. What were the weights of the F16 class and Viper F16 again. 107 to 125 kg ready to sail ?

Coincidence ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Dutch crew range using BMI index with 20-25 => 135 kg to 170 kg
Singapore crew range using BMI index with 20-25 => 118 to 148 kg

I rest my case !


Wouter

Objection!

As someone who wants facts, that post is extremely skewed and a gross generalisation.

Singapore has a high number of ex-pats who wouldn't be included in the Singapore stats. The sailing community in Singapore also has a higher proportion of expats and over half the fleet I would say is not Singaporean in most sailing events. And this means your above "coincidence" is not really anything but getting 2 sets of data to help your argument but said data not really completely relevant.

How about looking through the people and the nationalities of those who sail F16s in Singapore. That would give you a much more accurate reflection. There are your Dutch, English, German and many other nationalities.

At the recent Western Circuit, 7 of the sailors in the cat fleet were Singaporean and 11 were ex-pat (I am including crews too).

From Rolf on the Simon's thread:



Hesitation by me about hull durability is more where I sail and the odds of hull bopping than about the boat at this point.

Congrats to you Simon. It looks so fine!

In Catamaran Sailing by Phil Berman in Chpt 14, he said, "More than any other kind of boats, catamarans have popularized the 'off the beach' approach to recreational sailing." Chapter is on surfing with a cat.

He might have qualified that better by adding "for boats designed as beach cats."

In fairness, later, he said, "If the hulls have little rocker and it's a light built cat like a Tornado, you really shouldn't ride surf over three feet high."

Can also qualify high performance boats with something like: "This is a high performance racing boat and is not meant to be used as a beach cat."

Ah, well.

I hear the Blade mast is a bear to raise. Is my technique off? --

Hey Danny "ratherbsailing"
We can certainly look into the Aussie Blades for sure. If you know the builder well, can you put u sin touch?

WEight
taipanfc is right.. we have such a mix of nationalities here that no body mass index is going to cover us!

But at least the weigh-debate is in a proper realm now! The platform weight is just part of the equation, the crew weight is another.

Personally if someone has a lightweigh F16 (Taipan) and puts 170kg crew weight on it - what's the point? So a real debate on weight would be the crew weight!!

I think Jim Boyer had the records for the last 20 years of Nationals in Australia and if I remember correctly, the most successful weight on a Taipan was 145kgs combined.

It will be interesting to get the same fig's for the rest of the F16's.. but we might have to wait a LONG time!

In Singapore we have everything. Our lightweights are about 110kgs (combined crew weights) then we have some large 'expats' 180kgs (combined) which is sort of why 'larger' hull volume 16's are becoming popular here.

At our local events we have just about every nationality represented, that's the really nice thing about the fleet - the mark rounding are a cacophony of languages! But funny how some words sound the same no matter what the language!!!

Dear Wouter
That wasn't very nice - "When Greg wasn't looking we placed everything on the electronic scales..." - why didn't you just ask.

I do agree "when a builder pays attention..." I think they're paying close attention now!

cheers and thanks

JJ_, why do you single out the Blade when the Viper, Taipan and Blade all have the same mast section. If you want lightweight masts with corrector weights on the top, go Stealth or buy a custom carbon mast. Boats can be delivered without masts so you can buy a custom mast.
If you want to go surfing, a surfboard or a windsurfer is much better suited than any cat. Why dont you tell why you think you want an F16, where you sail, your experience with cats and I am sure you will get feedback on wether a F16 is the boat for you.