Any thoughts on the mathematical conversion from DPN to PHRF? Sometimes us northeast cats have to mix it up with leaners.

Sorry guys, I should have been clearer, didn't mean to start anything. Just saying that most of what I sail these days is one-design, and looking at Jake's cool calculation just made me realize how simple it is when I see a boat ahead of me to know where I stand. No manufacturer wars or anything, I'll sell anything with sails. I'm not picky, I sell from Pcats, Hobie, Catalina, Hunter, Ashby, Bic and any guy that walks through the door and wants to sell his boat. I do draw the line at power boats though. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

We all good? I want to keep my 4 remaining stars <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

J

As someone who has suffered thru scoring large open fleets, may I say....

...THANK YOU, again, Jerome. Your attitude is a joy to behold.


may I also say that the open fleet situations are a microcosm of what is going on in the US:

We have a population who is either too busy trying to make enough money to get all the things they THINK they need, or too LAZY to bother...
...to learn about the system in which they live.
...So then, they either depend on others (such as pundits) to tell them what is going on and for whom to vote.
...And then, when someone comes along who realizes that the population is lazy and ignorant, they take advantage of the situation.
...And then, the people whine and cry, when it's their OWN FAULT that they're being taken for a ride.


Here's the deal:

People, the RC are VOLUNTEERS who are wired-out stressed just putting on the regatta. It's about as pleasant as a root canal. I am amazed that anyone can stand to run a race more than once, much less for years.

And to top it off, the people who come to the race want the RC to figure out what THEY should know, which is their OWN Portsmouth number. And bitch and cry about how the race is run, when they've NEVER run a race themselves, and refuse to spend the time to learn about Portsmouth.

The system is just fine. It's up to YOU, the RACERS, to make it work. The whole basis in Corinthian sailing is that it's SELF-POLICING.

This means that it's up to the RACERS:
--to be honest.
--to deal with EACH OTHER when someone isn't honest.
--to solve infractions on the water, but when you can't, then take it to the RC in a reasonable tone WITH EVIDENCE TO BACK ANY ASSERTIONS YOU MAKE. <<That means KNOW YOUR NUMBER.

BTW...if you build yourself a Frankenboat, it's absolutely incumbent upon YOU to know your mods and report them to the RC. Live with what you're dealt - you didn't have to change the boat.


I echo Jerome: Kudos to WindyHill for asking the questions.

FWIW, w.h.... take a harder knock than you think you should, 'cause it will quieten the whining. Somewhat.

Yup.

There are other rating systems like Texel that are measurement based. Then cross over to DPN using boats w/ matching measured rating. Finally, if folks in the open fleet aren't happy with the rating you worked up- Talk to them! I would rather race w/ folks glad to see me and my boat then have a killer rating that makes winning easy. Leave that BS to the leadboat crowd...

Duh, I didn't think of that. That's a great idea. Can somebody run a Hobie 18 with an F18 sailplan through Texel...or wait...is there a point? I'm not intimately familiar with the texel rating system but the Hobie 18 is going to come out the same as the F18 isn't it?

Your stars are safe from me, 'migo. Tell Gene I said "hi" and "drive safely home with your new boat." He's going to be a factor in the 16 fleet again, I'd bet.

Try this: http://www.schrs.com/uploads/site/exe/SCHRSCalc2007.exe

Once you have a schrs figure calculate alternative system number using variance from a 'datum' boat eg.F18

Cheshirecatman

Will work on it. BTW- your estimate was pretty close.

"I echo Jerome: Kudos to WindyHill for asking the questions."

Well said. In my focus to answer the "responsibility" question, I completely overlooked this obvious point.

WindyHill is doing exactly what he should, and more people should act that way (would make all the rest of the whining in this thread invalid)...

Mike

brucat

WindyHill is doing exactly what he should... But he is screwed!

the problem is... He needs SOME authority to give him the Good house keeping seal of approval... Without the OK Dokey... he is always screwed...

if he sails the boat very well and sails to his rating. that he calculates... the rating will be suspect ... he will win because by definition... he sailed the boat to his rating. and his wins will be viewed as a problem. (even though he sailed very very well) .....

The discusion will be... There is something wrong with his rating and it undermines his racing performance ...

On the other hand...

If he sails the boat very well and looses his shirt... there is also something wrong... he doesn't have a chance.

It's a no win situation as it stands.

He has a complicated ratings question. EMSA (I think organizes the region) should OK a rating by calulating, guessing, interpolating from texel... voodoo...Whatever they choose... But when all parties feel a fair consensus is determined... declare the rating... and that is the end of the story.

Everyone can race and the rating is a non issue. That is the goal... the rating is a non issue.

Hobie 18 rates 109 TEXEL (DPN 71.4) Same as Nacra 5.7 (DPN 72.6).
Add a spin and you get 104

Hobie 18 with F18 rig, no spin rates 107. Same as Nacra 570 (DPN 70.5) and Prindle 18-2 (DPN 69.1)
Add a spin and you have 102.

F18= 106/101
F16= 106/102 ( 2 up)

Crossing over to Portsmouth will give you a range as a starting point.

so you're saying Texel rates the H18Thang as FASTER than an F18?

No, slower. 107/102 vs. 106/101.

Pardon my inexperience - but what are the two numbers?

Mark,

OK, I was referring to the whining regarding who is responsible, not whether the rating systems are fair, accurate, etc.

At some point, people have to either just accept the systems and race, or come up with something better and get it into common use. Anything else is just banging your head against a wall.

Like Jeremy said, gotta love one-design...

Mike

107 no spin H18Thang/ 102 Spin TheMightyHobie18 Thang

106 no spin F18/ 101 Spin F18

Texel automatically calculates both ratings for no spin/spin.


FYI-

My boat rates 106/101 with the Gcat rig and 1.035 SCHRS (no spin).

ALSO-
Neither measured rating system accounts for pinhead vs. squaretop main.

Here is the current SCHRS database: http://www.schrs.com/index.php?page=ratings

First number is rating without spi the second number is with a spi fitted.

Wouter

No offense... but you still are avoiding the point.

The who is responsible and whining issue is not a matter of individual responsiblity... ie WindyHill's

Moreover, The standard paeon to Oh... if it were only One Design is BS as well.

One design is ONLY working... because some individuals step up and ensure that the boats meet the class rules... (that somebody elsle wrote down and got world wide agreement on. )
At the NAs... they measure you... eg.. hobie parts, hobie sails etc, etc, minimum boat weight. It's a lot of effort as well.

Portsmouth is not fundamentally different.
In WindyHills case... he needs some individuals to step up... take on the rating responsiblity an OK his rating... just like the hobie 16 measurer did at their nationals (After all he declared your boat is a legal one design hobie 16).

It's simple! really!
Bottom line... TWO Parts needed here.
Windy Hill... Spec's out what changes he made.... calculates his rating lots of ways .... voodoo... whatever.

Second Part... Local Rating board...Actually looks at boat.. Meets for 10 minutes... discusses the matter.... votes on Windyhills proposed rating

End of story

(You don't want a national board to generate ratings sight unseen .... would you?)

Ratings will always be an issue, someone will always be unhappy it won't matter if it's created by committee and singed off by the grand poobah of all ratings great and small himself/herself. If you sail handicap you simply have to accept the obvious flaws and not take it too seriously. The bitching will never end and the bitching is as much part of racing handicap as the sailing itself.

I avoid racing handicap as much as possible and this has improved my enjoyment of the sport, but that's just me.

Whatever Ding,

Just join with Jake and whom ever and come up with your "certified or approved" rating for the frakenboat of Windyhill.

(Your indigestion will go away and it's good for the sport to have as many people racing as possible)