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Re: Winglets on trailing edge [Re: JACKFLASH] #155529
09/27/08 03:10 PM
09/27/08 03:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Quote
I should stay out of this since I have absolutely no aerodynamic training, but as I understand it (from years of training on the Discovery Channel) the winglet, as well as those little fins that they stick on the top of plane wings were put in place to keep the air from spilling off the end of the wing thus keeping the flow more front to back and there for making it more efficient. Improved air flow/attachment equals less power needed to generate the same amount of lift.


Winglets are there to help the tip vortex form in the tip of the wing instead of anywhere else, thus keeping the entire wing span effective for more time than without them.


Luiz
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Winglets on trailing edge [Re: Luiz] #155530
09/29/08 12:10 AM
09/29/08 12:10 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
ncik Offline
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An alternative theory is that the winglets are designed to "intercept" the vortex at an appropriate angle to produce thrust.

Consider a propeller spinning in a straight flow producing thrust. That's easy to understand because we see it all the time.

Now invert it so that a fixed foil is in a spinning flow. This is the case at the tip of a wing with a winglet attached.

The fluid wants to move from the high pressure side to the low pressure side which generates a vortex/twist in the flow. Put a small foil at a slight angle in the way of this twisting flow and you may be able to generate some thrust.

Re: Winglets on trailing edge [Re: ncik] #155531
09/29/08 10:12 AM
09/29/08 10:12 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Quote
An alternative theory is that the winglets are designed to "intercept" the vortex at an appropriate angle to produce thrust.

Consider a propeller spinning in a straight flow producing thrust. That's easy to understand because we see it all the time.

Now invert it so that a fixed foil is in a spinning flow. This is the case at the tip of a wing with a winglet attached.

The fluid wants to move from the high pressure side to the low pressure side which generates a vortex/twist in the flow. Put a small foil at a slight angle in the way of this twisting flow and you may be able to generate some thrust.


I really don't know. In fact, my previous post was based on what I could learn from Chapter 3.12 of John Denker's online book "See How It Flies", from where I quote the following:



Quote
[color:"blue"] Winglets encourage the vorticity to be shed nearer the wingtips, rather than somewhere else along the span.[/color] This produces more lift, since each part of the span contributes lift in proportion to the amount of circulation carried by that part of the span, in accordance with the Kutta-Zhukovsky theorem. In any case, as a general rule, adding a pair of six-foot-tall winglets has no aerodynamic advantage compared to adding six feet of regular, horizontal wing on each side.


My view is the following:
Sails are different from wings. A sail tip does not rotate/move due to boat motion/waves at speeds that are relatively high compared to the wind speed. IF winglets help keep the vortex in place, they could possibly boost performance.


Luiz
Re: Winglets on trailing edge [Re: Luiz] #155532
09/29/08 10:37 AM
09/29/08 10:37 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
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All the time you blokes have spent looking up, YOUV'E JUST MISSED THE LAYLINE!


Sorry couldn't resist, Carry on, its good stuff [If I only understood it]


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: Winglets on trailing edge [Re: Luiz] #155533
09/29/08 11:33 AM
09/29/08 11:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
Quote
An alternative theory is that the winglets are designed to "intercept" the vortex at an appropriate angle to produce thrust.

Consider a propeller spinning in a straight flow producing thrust. That's easy to understand because we see it all the time.

Now invert it so that a fixed foil is in a spinning flow. This is the case at the tip of a wing with a winglet attached.

The fluid wants to move from the high pressure side to the low pressure side which generates a vortex/twist in the flow. Put a small foil at a slight angle in the way of this twisting flow and you may be able to generate some thrust.


I really don't know. In fact, my previous post was based on what I could learn from Chapter 3.12 of John Denker's online book "See How It Flies", from where I quote the following:



Quote
[color:"blue"] Winglets encourage the vorticity to be shed nearer the wingtips, rather than somewhere else along the span.[/color] This produces more lift, since each part of the span contributes lift in proportion to the amount of circulation carried by that part of the span, in accordance with the Kutta-Zhukovsky theorem. In any case, as a general rule, adding a pair of six-foot-tall winglets has no aerodynamic advantage compared to adding six feet of regular, horizontal wing on each side.


My view is the following:
Sails are different from wings. A sail tip does not rotate/move due to boat motion/waves at speeds that are relatively high compared to the wind speed. IF winglets help keep the vortex in place, they could possibly boost performance.



I believe that theory can be extended to the difference between old pin head sails and the newer square tops. The difference between the two is not complete to get more sail area up high...rather, on the pin head, as the air spills around the top of the sail on the windward side, it will curl around the back of the sail near the top. With the pin-head, this "leaking" air around the top would wash downward on the leeward side washing out some of the good airflow generating lift. By adding the square head, the amount of air that would leak to the backside is reduced. I believe the winglet takes this to the next step.


Jake Kohl
Re: Winglets on trailing edge [Re: Jake] #155534
10/11/08 09:35 AM
10/11/08 09:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 169
Santa Barbara CA
sbflyer Offline
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Santa Barbara CA
I don't know, wouldn't winglets increase the drag to leeward? And all the planes you see them on operate at fairly constant angles of attack, with the way cat masts move around it seems like it would add more drag, for example every time the bows go up and down over a wave it would raise and lower the angle, and keep shaking the airflow off. As a longtime hangglider pilot I've seen different tries at the winglet idea, and nobody has been able to make it work, mostly because every time the wing yaws a little it brings one side to too low an angle as the other side goes to too high an angle. One of those ideas that seem good but that don't work in actual use, maybe?

Re: Winglets on trailing edge [Re: sbflyer] #155535
10/11/08 09:52 PM
10/11/08 09:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Quote
I don't know, wouldn't winglets increase the drag to leeward? And all the planes you see them on operate at fairly constant angles of attack, with the way cat masts move around it seems like it would add more drag, for example every time the bows go up and down over a wave it would raise and lower the angle, and keep shaking the airflow off. As a longtime hangglider pilot I've seen different tries at the winglet idea, and nobody has been able to make it work, mostly because every time the wing yaws a little it brings one side to too low an angle as the other side goes to too high an angle. One of those ideas that seem good but that don't work in actual use, maybe?


Maybe, maybe not.
Handgliders are closer to boat speeds, but don't have the same problem of flow attching/detaching near the top of the sail (wing tip) due to waves. It could just happen that a winglet would guide the vortex and help the flow remain attached all the way to the top when the sail moves due to waves. I really don't know and my guess is that even an experienced aerodynamics specialist will ask for wind tunnel tests before giving a final answer.


Luiz
Re: Winglets on trailing edge [Re: Luiz] #155536
10/12/08 08:18 AM
10/12/08 08:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I think Luiz has hit on the biggest problem when it comes to winglets on sails or foils on sailboats. We are not operating in "smooth flow" all the time like an airplane is. With the up-down motion of a sailboat going through waves, there is a side loading on the winglet, from both sides, as it goes up and down, and I think that constant change of flow direction will make them quite a bit less efficient than on an airplane wing.

It may just increase drag without any real increase in lift.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Winglets on trailing edge [Re: Timbo] #155537
10/12/08 08:53 AM
10/12/08 08:53 AM

A
Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Jake, i am not sure you can trust a book on how to fly by John Denver!....

Re: Winglets on trailing edge [Re: ] #155538
10/12/08 08:54 AM
10/12/08 08:54 AM

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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Ohhhhh, John Denker.....

never mind (spoken in a high pitch voice like Gilda Radner)


[Linked Image]

Last edited by andrewscott; 10/12/08 08:57 AM.
Re: Winglets on trailing edge [Re: ] #155539
10/12/08 11:55 AM
10/12/08 11:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 169
Santa Barbara CA
sbflyer Offline
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Posts: 169
Santa Barbara CA
Hanggliders DO have the same problem of tip attachment, but due to air turbulence, esp. with the variable geometry on taking the twist out...(analogous to the boom vang being tightened) with severe enough separation at one tip leading to a spin...

Re: Winglets on trailing edge [Re: Timbo] #155540
10/12/08 06:19 PM
10/12/08 06:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
ncik Offline
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The same situation of oscillating flow occurs in America's Cup yachts yet winglets on keels have been on pretty much every boat for the last couple of events...

Re: Winglets on trailing edge [Re: ncik] #155541
10/12/08 07:40 PM
10/12/08 07:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 169
Santa Barbara CA
sbflyer Offline
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sbflyer  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 169
Santa Barbara CA
Those things don't exactly bob around much...and how many AC boat have you seen with sail winglets?

Re: Winglets on trailing edge [Re: sbflyer] #155542
10/13/08 01:55 AM
10/13/08 01:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline OP
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Bay of Islands, NZ
Quote
Those things don't exactly bob around much...and how many AC boat have you seen with sail winglets?


How many did you see with square tops tin the previous AC event?! They are not exactly quick on the uptake!
I asked the Prada sail designer personally ten years ago why they had no square tops and he said "Oh, too much construction".
Check the top of the new mast of the Big Dog tri. Small winglets I think.

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