| Re: New Hobie F18?
[Re: Timbo]
#157864 10/21/08 04:35 PM 10/21/08 04:35 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | Evidence provided to the DPN committee by regatta organizers.
Open class racing Wind factors must be used Only buoy racing, traditional upwind downwind with possibly a reach. The USSailing course card is your guide.
Again, if the evidence supports your claim that F18 has become faster over time then the number will be adjusted.
The only role I see the NAF18 Championship results and any championship for that matter is to show who is your top guns are in each class.
If I were on the DPN committee, I would look at the championship results to determine the top guns. Look at the results at the Alter Cup Championships and see how the skippers measured up, this is about the only place where the top guns in range of classes race each other straight up. Finally I would review all the open class results with maybe a little extra attention paid to the area qualifier which I would then use to calculate an adjustment if the evidence supported it.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: New Hobie F18?
[Re: David Ingram]
#157870 10/21/08 04:57 PM 10/21/08 04:57 PM |
Joined: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,584 +31NL Tony_F18
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Posts: 2,584 +31NL | There was an interesting interview with Bouwe Bekking over at the Daily Sail (subscriber section). They talked about the design and how the software which was develop during the AC and mainly applies to displacement hulls where no longer relevant. Ironically the new design software was borrowed from what the powerboat designers use, and thats where they got the idea to put "spray stoppers" on the bow. http://bp2.blogger.com/_U6Cp5x-Sbr8/SGjEvRiX_RI/AAAAAAAAD-w/n2TDvpqjzkw/s1600-h/DSC_2792_1.jpg
Last edited by Tony_F18; 10/21/08 04:57 PM.
| | | Re: New Hobie F18?
[Re: David Ingram]
#157873 10/21/08 05:24 PM 10/21/08 05:24 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | See, this is why I think there should be an exact distance measured for the course and it should be easy now that we all have hand-held GPS available.
If every "NA's" course were a measured mile (or 1.5, or what ever, but all exactly the same) from A to C, you could easily make a valid comarison from boat type to boat type, given the exact wind speed and the time it takes each boat type to get from C to A and A to C, use that as some type of a rating system, voila, you have a better system, and you don't even have to be racing open class to do it. Just measure the distance and time at each NA's, where the best skippers are sailing their own boats. The Alter Cup is a bit skewed because if the "team" isn't right for the boat (too heavy, too light, etc), or new to that type of boat, or whatever, their times will be signifigantly slower than when the same team sails their own boat.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: New Hobie F18?
[Re: Tony_F18]
#157875 10/21/08 05:30 PM 10/21/08 05:30 PM |
Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 308 Reno NV Rhino1302
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Posts: 308 Reno NV | There was an interesting interview with Bouwe Bekking over at the Daily Sail (subscriber section). They talked about the design and how the software which was develop during the AC and mainly applies to displacement hulls where no longer relevant. Ironically the new design software was borrowed from what the powerboat designers use, and thats where they got the idea to put "spray stoppers" on the bow. http://bp2.blogger.com/_U6Cp5x-Sbr8/SGjEvRiX_RI/AAAAAAAAD-w/n2TDvpqjzkw/s1600-h/DSC_2792_1.jpg These guys were way ahead of the curve... | | | Re: New Hobie F18?
[Re: Timbo]
#157878 10/21/08 05:58 PM 10/21/08 05:58 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | You know what, I'm done with this. I hate handicap racing and I hate talking about it even more. If you really believe in your system make it happen. If you don't want to put any more effort into creating a better system than hammering on a keyboard then it really wasn't all that good of an idea.
Ding out!
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: New Hobie F18?
[Re: Timbo]
#157888 10/21/08 07:39 PM 10/21/08 07:39 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Dave, it's not my possition, it's the builders who are making the new F18's faster and faster, otherwise you would all be racing a 1996 Tiger, right?
And I'm not saying, I'm just saying, "Evolution" should be taught in school...
And I have no idea how P number get -adjusted- anyway, does that latest F18 NA's, where the top boats were all Caps. and Infusions count in anyway? Or is only one boat vs. another, different class boat, finish times that get put in the mix?
If Matt invents a new F16 design and it is clearly faster than all the other Blades, when Matt is sailing it, will anyone ask that number to be -adjusted- too? Of couse they would. That's all I'm saying. The portsmouth number gets adjusted when the regatta organizers send in their handicap racing results from their open classes that were scored on Portsmouth. These relationships to other boats finish positions are considered in a database and the first place finishers contribute to the handicap rating and a small (very) small adjustment would happen from one or two race results. Enter 12 race results and the numbers get more refined. If regatta people don't send any results then the portsmouth group has to guess at where the numbers are. As it relates to F18, the tiger is the ONLY F18 platform that has it's own rating. This is because the Hobie Tiger class rules have differentiated from F18 rules - mostly in the crew weight area. They race under a different rule set and get a different rating. All other F18's race under the F18 rating. If one of the other F18 boats proves to be faster than the others, it will be a minor improvement in speed (as history has proven) - and the rating system will self adjust fast enough to accommodate this shift for the class' potential.
Last edited by Jake; 10/21/08 07:40 PM.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: New Hobie F18?
[Re: Timbo]
#157890 10/21/08 07:46 PM 10/21/08 07:46 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | See, this is why I think there should be an exact distance measured for the course and it should be easy now that we all have hand-held GPS available.
If every "NA's" course were a measured mile (or 1.5, or what ever, but all exactly the same) from A to C, you could easily make a valid comarison from boat type to boat type, given the exact wind speed and the time it takes each boat type to get from C to A and A to C, use that as some type of a rating system, voila, you have a better system, and you don't even have to be racing open class to do it. Just measure the distance and time at each NA's, where the best skippers are sailing their own boats. The Alter Cup is a bit skewed because if the "team" isn't right for the boat (too heavy, too light, etc), or new to that type of boat, or whatever, their times will be signifigantly slower than when the same team sails their own boat.
Yeah, but there are a lot of other variables that go into boat speed that you haven't yet measured; wave height, wave direction, wave period, amount of chop, amount of boat traffic/wake, wind speed, wind direction, peak wind gusts, period of wind shifts, range of wind shifts, .... there are way too many variables to try and calculate a performance based system without the boats sharing the same racing time on the same racing water.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: New Hobie F18?
[Re: Jake]
#157923 10/22/08 09:07 AM 10/22/08 09:07 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 833 St. Louis, MO, Mike Hill
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Posts: 833 St. Louis, MO, | Don't forget tides too. Wind shifts are actually the thing that separates boats. Some boats sail a shorter course to A mark. Some boats sail in more wind on their way to A mark by sailing smarter.
Mike Hill N20 #1005
Mike Hill N20 #1005
| | | Re: New Hobie F18?
[Re: Mike Hill]
#157925 10/22/08 09:35 AM 10/22/08 09:35 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | so what happens if this proposed hull shape is actually faster by a small, but noticable margin? Everyone runs out to buy the new boat? Is that what they refer to in other threads about "arms race"?
Jay
| | | Re: New Hobie F18?
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#157926 10/22/08 10:31 AM 10/22/08 10:31 AM |
Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 308 Reno NV Rhino1302
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Posts: 308 Reno NV | so what happens if this proposed hull shape is actually faster by a small, but noticable margin? Everyone runs out to buy the new boat? Is that what they refer to in other threads about "arms race"? This could be a good thing. If the difference is small enough, it only matters to the best, most competitive sailors. Then they'll run out and buy a new boat and sell their older but still great boat to a less competitive sailor at a discount. It's the trickle-down theory of class building. | | | Re: New Hobie F18?
[Re: Mike Hill]
#157929 10/22/08 11:46 AM 10/22/08 11:46 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Don't forget tides too. Wind shifts are actually the thing that separates boats. Some boats sail a shorter course to A mark. Some boats sail in more wind on their way to A mark by sailing smarter.
Mike Hill N20 #1005 Oh yeah! I forget tide and current and since the current can vary all over the course depending on the water depth....
Jake Kohl | | | Re: New Hobie F18?
[Re: F-18 5150]
#157956 10/22/08 04:16 PM 10/22/08 04:16 PM | Scarecrow
Unregistered
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Unregistered | New designs are always faster, it works like this.....
Say you have a three year old "Design X", you've raced it pretty hard and done well. Then you test sail a brand new "Design Y" and discover it is stiffer, faster and more responsive than your current boat, therefor it must be better so you sell your boat and buy the new one.
The truth is 90% of the 2% difference is that you're comparing 3 year old gear with brand new stuff. Test sail a brand new "Design X" (identical to your current boat) and you'll probably find the same difference.
One thing most F18 sailors will tell you is all the boats (including the older designs) can have their day, More than anything else the new hobie is a marketing and fashion exercise because after 12 years the Tiger is falling out of fashion. | | | Re: New Hobie F18?
[Re: ]
#157957 10/22/08 04:18 PM 10/22/08 04:18 PM |
Joined: May 2002 Posts: 1,037 Central California ejpoulsen
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Posts: 1,037 Central California | New designs are always faster, it works like this.....
Say you have a three year old "Design X", you've raced it pretty hard and done well. Then you test sail a brand new "Design Y" and discover it is stiffer, faster and more responsive than your current boat, therefor it must be better so you sell your boat and buy the new one.
The truth is 90% of the 2% difference is that you're comparing 3 year old gear with brand new stuff. Test sail a brand new "Design X" (identical to your current boat) and you'll probably find the same difference.
One thing most F18 sailors will tell you is all the boats (including the older designs) can have their day, More than anything else the new hobie is a marketing and fashion exercise because after 12 years the Tiger is falling out of fashion. Well said!
Eric Poulsen A-class USA 203 Ultimate 20 Central California
| | | Re: New Hobie F18?
[Re: Tony_F18]
#159860 11/07/08 11:28 AM 11/07/08 11:28 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | It must be fast because that's Gaud-awful ugly... Looks like a native warrior mask...
Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 11/07/08 11:28 AM.
Jay
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