The white F20 is not new, i think I 1st raced against it in the iF20 europeans/westland cup in about 2001. It has poped up in a few different guises since

Didn't break in half. Kind of like saying every N20 at the Alter Cup in 06 broke their boards and rudders.
I am not trying to start/perpetuate an F16 vs World thread, but you know how things take on a life of their own when a comment like that is made.

Is this the White 20?

Maybe.... I thought the previous pics I had seen showed the daggers entering at an angle next to the shrouds.

What the hey is this-- "Daggers entering at an angle"?
Another rumor or true? More Canted boards?

It looks like one of the boats built by white formula for john de vries. I did hear of one of the designs having four boards. The other white formula/swell catamarans f20 was the storm.

Cheshirecatman

It is the White Formula 20, and yes it does have 4 boards in current trim.

God I hate to have to agree with Trey. But there it is.
And for clarification I sail an A when I can't find crew for the 20, but I don't do any of that other sissy crap.

And I get one more year older this weekend too.

I am late to this thread, but I thought I might chime in since I am a N6.0 (Worrell setup) owner who skipped the N20 and now sail an A-class.

1. First, cost of boats: I remember in the late 1970s and early 1980s, a Laser cost $2000 at Backyard Boats Alexandria. At the last boat show I attended, that same boat costs 6500Euro! Is this because cheaper boats are from companies producing at a loss or because Vangard is exploiting a monopoly? I suspect the answer is probably both and is still both with all SMODs, just that guys like PC can't push as hard as Vangard because their market is far less rohbust.

2. I loved sailing a big strong 2 man boat designed for American (100kg)220lb guys. Our mistake (in the US) however, is that we let Mast and Sail be under SMOD control. This is where the poorest value/money is revealed and you see boats like the A-class able to draw from a larger pool of person-size because there is flexibility here. SMOD is a great technique to control platform costs. Box rules are needed on sail and rig to lengthen their competitive lifespan and broaden the fleet size. Big boats have developed tools to control the costs here through number of sail registration limits, sails owned by the class, etc. But I find the 20ft class limiting because your total crew weight must fit within such a narrow band.

3. The spinnaker (Worrell unlimied from) standard for distance racing kept the N6.0 competitive for a very long time after the N20 for this type of racing. But this configuration was impossible for buoy racing and improvised buoy sized systems were frustrating to developer yourself and given correction factors set by the history of the oversize distance versions. The Boston fleet tried to fix this with a 'class spinnaker' with snuffer. Unfortunately, by the time they developed their system, N20s had already become the dominant buoy+distance combination boat. Lesson learned, the boat will become obsolete because of inflexibility in the sail plan far earlier than it will for platform issues.

The day new boats stop entering the fleet (to create used boats for newcomers) is the day that marks the beginning of fleet death. High prices and low volumes always come together with a dieing fleet. This can be triggered by arms race or inflexibility. European arms races seem to be less damaging to the fleets than American over-control from my view. The problem is that SMOD are easy to organize, the manufacturer does all the work and takes all the up front risks.


Matt Mayfield

Guys the price of an A in NA is around $20k, and with a N20 being around the same cost where is the better value? I don't think that opening up the sails to 3rd party sailmakers is going to net you anything more than maybe a few hundred dollars savings, and then you will have open the door for a whole bunch of controversy..who is legal, who is going to measure them etc. No I don't think that SMOD is the poorest value for the money. PC has always been reasonable with their prices, and less cost than most but I do agree that the recent price increases are a bit steep. There are solutions to the $11k mast price, it is just a question of time/money to get those solutions to the fleets.

The cost of boats is a direct result of volume, inflation and yes profit margin. You can't compare the price of boats 30 years ago with today since the volume of boats made is a lot less and so the profit margin per boat has to be higher.

Even if somehow magically the cost of a N20 mast came down by $3000 or the cost of a new N20 came down $3000 do you think that more people would jump into the fleet? No I don't think so. But if the price goes up a lot more, say into Tornado territory then yes it will have an impact. I am sure that more people would be sailing Tornados if it weren't for the price.

I don't think that there really is a debate here about the N20 fleets. It is the only game in town for a 20' boat (at a reasonable cost) and it is a fantastic boat so there is (I think) no reason to speculate on its demise. I think the biggest risk is that PC stops building the boat due to no sales volume, and going to 3rd parties to get parts isn't going to look favourably for PC to continue building it. (Just to be clear I don't think there is any reason PC WOULD stop building the boat!) I do think that we need to support PC and not nickel and dime them as cat sailors are apt to do.

so the original question was about the price of a mast. Aside from some anecdotal evidence on Tornado/Aclass mast prices, would any domestic manufacturer have an idea of a REALISTIC price for the mast if they were given the specs? Is it really low demand that is sparking the high cost?

Which costs more: changing the sailplan configuration to use a more readily available (and therefore cheaper)spar (like Tornado carbon masts), or paying more for spars that meet current configurations?

N20 owners: would you rather re-fit your boat to a new configuration ($5000 Tornado mast, $2000 main, $700 jib, $1200 spin) or suffer $11k if you break your current mast? (Insurance coverage issues aside)

I'm sure PC has solicited other mfg. companies for pricing on things like spars, rigging, and fit-out. Why, then, have companies not produced estimates lower than the rumored $11k spar?

And yes, I'd agree that beachcat sailors (and maybe flying dutchman class) are the cheapest sailors around. I was rail meat on a Tartan 31 that was a 2knot s-box, at best placing near the back of the pack (phrf) and the owner ponied up over $150 per race just to show up. Never mind sheltering 4 crew two weekends a month, buying 135% genoa, paynig yacht club dues, etc...
He actively raced for about 8 years until he couldn't find crew (all moved to faster boats). True Corinthian, out there to sail better even if he didn't win. And I wish there were more out there like him

You can buy a 29' (or close to it) A-cat mast carbon tube from Hall Spars for $2,245.00 uncoated. $2780 clearcoated. No hardware.

Granted, it doesn't have nearly enough carbon for a Nacra 20 and this does not include hardware...but it's still a far cry from $11,000.

Jake, you obviously don't get it! those stainless fittings are actullay gold coated with stainless! Didn't you know that?

Here, walk over behind this tree, I have some Kool Aid I need you to drink... it will all be ok soon

(sorry, reading too much political stuff... got carried away, lol)

I just got off the phone with a friend who has a company in Irvine California that builds carbon components for Boeing as well as racecar teams. I asked about carbon prices in general and he said that raw carbon material as gone from $20 to over $50 per pound recently.

He also said that the Navy has stockpiled millions of pounds for new projects including two mostly carbon destroyers. He wouldn’t say but my impression is that these two “tin cans” have already been built, each using a million pounds of carbon materials.

Where do carbon masts fall in this scheme of things?

Make masts, not war.

Yea but can those destroyers fly a hull in 15 knots?

Probably not but reports are that they can go 60 even though the specs say 30+.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/dd-x-pics.htm

If you can't fly a hull... i dont want to be on it (and i am x-navy)

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/08/02/military/8105195320.txt

Here you go. The second best branch of the U.S. Military is on board with multihulls...