Hmmm...those H16 guys always kick my butt in the qualifier...maybe I'll stand a chance now

If folks can set aside the partisanship for a minute--this seems like a great opportunity to sail one of the most interesting new boats to come on the scene in the last few years.

And not with just any bottom of the line design, but top of the line and rigged to the latest racing standard F18's and now F16's. There is at least a doubling in the invested money right there, by a company that is nowhere near the size or financial cloud of a company like Nacra or Hobie and also half a world away.

If anything, we have got to respect that !

Now the Hobie 16 boys will have their period of public grief, and rightly so, but in the end even they will have to look at the hard facts and concede that there is some considerable difference here; if not a controversy that is best avoided altogether. These facts do indeed argue in favour of the AHPC supplied boats.

Indeed, the Alter Cup Committee appears to have made the best choice possible in a very difficult situation. We have got to give credit to these guys for that ; even if they did foul up just a little bit in the delivery.

Wouter

But is the Viper F16 or F104? Both classes can claim the design.

Well, I don't know really.

Do you think the fact that AHPC themselves call it a "F16 Viper" on their webpage and show it with "F16" lettering in the sails be a hint ?

http://www.ahpc.com.au/Models/B_Viper.htm


I'm just a dumb European, so could you please explain the following AHPC write-up to me ?




Wouter

I think that was joke, Wout. Some of you guys are wound way too tight!

Hi Kevin, That is great that the Viper is the choice for the Alter Cup. But as an ex-Hobie-16 racer, that would've been so sweet to race one with a spin. Very exciting and challenging. Matt and I loved racing the H-16, wish there were more around here. But we are also loving the F-16. If you can't beat 'em on the H-16, join on a spin boat.

Ok so the USSA and Multihull board wanted a spin h-16. The date was set to use boats already bieng used for 2 other events. hobie class refused the boats because of the spin issue, Another 16 foot spin boat was chosen. Sorry but the h-16 communitee has no reason to be upset. This same issue happened on the tornado for the olympics. I.E. put spins on or your out. Now tornado's are pushing the spin technology and sail plans leading the pac. If not it would be the I-20,m-20 or fox in the olympics I love my hobie but if they decided to not make a spin boat in my class i'd buy a nacra or capricorn. The 16 is a great class and some of the best sailors i've met but to turn down a chance to race them with spin is just ludricris.
Thank you AHPC for filling a need and helping out.

Thanks, Eric - the link off the Alter Cup home page was broken.

2004 Alter Cup Results / Boat Normally Sailed / How they got there:
(source)
1) Mike Montague - Hobie 16 - Petition
2) Annie Nelson - Hobie 16 - Petition
3) Dan Kulkoski - Hobie 16 - Hobie Wave Champion (rotating slot, A-Class rep not attending)
4) Bill Jeffers - Hobie 16 - Petition
5) Rich McVeigh - Hobie 16 - Area C 1st place
6) Hobie P. Alter - Hobie 16 - Petition
7) Tom / Sue Korzeniewski - Hobie 16 - Petition
8) Jamie Diamond - Hobie 16 / Mystere 4.3 - Petition (no Olympic rep)
9) Greg Thomas - Tiger / Hobie 16 - Petition
10) Bill Kast - Hobie 16 / Hobie 17 - Petition
11) Ken Marshack - Hobie 18 / A-Cat - Area H 1st place
12) Kirk Newkirk - N20 / Hobie 20 - Hobie 20 Nationals
13) Bob Merrick - Hobie 16 - Petition
14) Jim Sajdak - Hobie 14 - Area G 1st place
15) Paul Hess - Hobie 16 - Hobie 16 NA Champion
16) Dan Delave - Hobie 16 / Tiger - Petition
17) Bret Sullivan - Hobie 16 - Youth Representative
18) Kevin Rejda - NACRA 6.0 - 3rd place N6.0 NA Nationals
19) Mike Ferrara - N-20 - Area A/B 4th place
20) Chris Sawyer - N-17 - N-17 Nationals

These statistics don't lie - half the spots were awarded by petition. Of the ten qualifying regattas, five Areas did not send any representatives and only three sent their actual winner.

Draw what conclusions you want, but I think that a lot of "spinnaker snobs" punted when they found out what boat the 2004 Alter Cup was going to be sailed in. They should all be ashamed of themselves.

I think the same sentiment was running this year - Brent's comment and Kevin's attitude speak volumes.

I am usually up to speed with much of what is going in in the HCA. I heard nothing about division chairs being surveyed about the 16 with spi. Maybe it didn't have a chance to make it to the local fleet meeting level.
I think the Hobie class should let our leaders make decisions when neccessary.
I am quite sure if I was in Chris's shoes I would have spoke with my vice chair and race director and let them know I was going to support the one time change and allow the Alter cup to add the spi. I don't see a problem. It doesn't change class rules and it is not an HCA event.
It seems that in recent years(IMO) that when the HCA has had chance to offer an olive branch to the rest of the sailing community we shoot ourselves in the foot.

It is hilarious. Complete jack-in-the-box with a hair trigger. But I guess we are sailing for sheep stations so I should wisen up!

Pat Bisesi for HCA President...voting begins today you know
Hell, you have any political aspirations for the oval office? I will write you in for that too!

OK, Pat - why don't we all go out and buy spin kits for our 16's and just get it over with?

The IHCA was set to pounce on this - "US SAILING Endorses H-16 w/spin!" was the title of their press release. How long do you think it would take for the spin to become fully class legal? Hobie Cat Europe has fought a subversive campaign to make it fully legal for the past 5 years and all it would take is a "one-time event" in the US to have them invalidate all the work we've done to keep it in check.

There are some interesting 'throwaway' comments in this thread and I'm increasingly intrigued. I don't actually care what boat the Alter Cup is sailed on as it's none of my business and it looks as though the Hobie guys are entitled to be pissed that they weren't told first that an alternative boat has been chosen.

What intrigues me is the apparent massive resistance to put a spin on the H16. I am genuinely puzzled. Surely fitting a spin would give the H16 a new lease of life at not too great a cost? I've sailed several H16s and loved every minute of it - even the 'instant' pitchpole with no real warning!! but I can see that fitting a spin will add a whole new, exciting aspect. Watching the H16s with spin at Carnac this year, it was fascinating to see how fast they could be around the course and on the return-to-beach leg at the end of the day we were all weaving in and out with H16s up there with F18s, Bimares etc. It was cool to see.

Why is there so much resistance to even making the spin an option in the US? And why the allegation that HCEurope has fought a 'subversive' campaign to make spins legal? What's subversive? What are they trying to subvert? I'm not trying to provoke a sh!t storm, I'm trying to understand the reasoning .....

I tried doing a search on here without much success - does anyone know if there's a thread on here where the reasons for not wanting to adopt a spin on the H16 was discussed?

I'll repeat.
Not a HCA event. Not changing our class rules.
I am against the spi for our class.
The ISAF womens was already sailed on a H16 with spin a few years back.
If the Hobie Cat company wants to provide boats with a spi, a set of wings, an add on center board and a third trap for your flying monkey for a NON-HCA event I don't see why the HCA should even be involved.
I know what the Alter cup rules say.
Perception matters, and HCA has not been perceived well.

On the flip side if Chris, Pat and Matt chose to say no the the question, I would support that to.
I always go back to the Camel being a Horse built by committee.

I assure you that nobody on the Multihull Committee has any interest in promoting or not promoting a one design class or a modified class. Nor is there any interest or underlying current in making some statement about how the Hobie 16 fits in the world. It's a championship that's sailed on multihulls and that's what they're after. That's all there is to it.

If there are some other political and worldy considerations, it has nothing to do with this championship committee.

John, I'll give you the short story:
We (meaning the US) have learned our lesson with the 14/Turbo and the 18/Magnum/SX/Formula. By introducing variants to existing classes, you only split the class. There is no net gain. You want to race with a spin? Great! Get an F16, F18 or any number of other classes. You want to race one-design in big fleets with a lot of tough competition? Get a Hobie 16.

HCE first tried to make the spinnaker class legal in 2003, at the IHCA AGM in Singapore (Tiger Worlds). They succeeded in getting the spec included in the class rules, but to be used only for "special youth events". This was primarily in response to ISAF's desire to have a spinnaker catamaran for the Youth Worlds. Every IHCA AGM since 2003 they try for a little more. They have stretched the envelope whenever they could - the ISAF Worlds event that Pat mentioned is one example. Another - the H-16 spin was spec'd in the NOR for the IHCA women's worlds in 2005 and we called them out on it. I call that subversive.

Less than 3 years ago, we conducted a survey in the North American region - over 80% of Hobie 16 racers did not want the spinnaker. That's a pretty significant mandate.

Talking about attitude ! I understand that we must all bow to the greatest one-design fleet in the USA and yell out HAIL ! three times in a row, but why do you think that people should do anything other then what they consider attractive ?

If say a skilled F18 doesn't get all warm and fuzzy when thinking about racing Hobie 16's in an Alter Cup event then why is he not free to thank for that honour and not go ?

Why on earth should he be ashamed of himself ?

Be called a snob ?


I think you have got things a bit mixed up here

Wouter

My understanding (now) is the HCA NA is one single vote on the council, and IHCA mandates the rules. My thoughts were in-line with Pat's, what could it hurt for one event?

Hey Wouter, I can send you a few good pictures of my Hobie 16 if you're setting up a shrine......KABOOM