This post is in regards to the thread http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=158492 but I couldn't post to for some reason.

The example we were using was:

C mark rounding (no gate). Several port tack boats setting up to pinwheel around the mark and a starboard tack inside boat is requesting and expecting room.

I talked to Means Davis our judge for the Area D South Elims this past weekend. He said that if the outside boat can demonstrate that they could not give room then they don't have to. So, the bottom line is even though starboard is entitled to room depending on the situation determines if they will get it or not. Means also indicated that this has always been true.

Just something to think about if your on the starboard tack layline sailing down to a port tack cluster F!@#. The protest may not be a slam dunk.

That's terrible. That's going to create a lot of carnage. You have rights to be in there but maybe not? What kind of rule is that?

See my bolding of Means' comment. It's always been this way. If there's a wall of boats there, you can't just shove in - it would be a violation of Rule 15 (and probably Rule 14).

Jake, as Means said... It's always been that way. Where is the additional carnage coming from? There is a pretty clear rule about contact.

Knowing that the protest may not go your way would make you think hard about forcing a bad situation ( I suspect this the reason for 18.2.e). I'm a big fan of the starboard layline approach but I can also see where the door could become hopelessly closed and a bailout would be a better approach.

If it's just a starboard and a single port tacker coming into the bottom mark, it's going to be a tough sell for the port tacker to claim they could not give room. Now if it's 5 port tack boats that your expecting to give you room... it probably starts to get a little fuzzy. Yep, could be a long night in the room.

My understanding was that the old rule defined the two boat length circle as the point where your rights became set. Your obligations as the burdened boat did NOT begin at this point. IE... you suddenly had to make a hole. Your burden was ever increasing as you approached the two boat circle. They argued that there should be no surprises when you hit the two boat lenght circle forcing you to take a dramatic action to make the hole.

In reading the rules now... the new definition is the Zone which is now three boat lenthgs. It sounds like the burden on port has not been decreased... just moved a bit further out. Port must still prepare and give room at the zone. Moreover... Port cannot determine that Starbord only gets... XXX feet of hole.. starbord has a good deal of freedom to sail HER proper course and not have to fit into the boat lenght and 1/2 of room that Port thinks starbord will need.

Besides... What would prevent outer most port from preparing and giving room to the inside boats and starboard? (ignorance of the rule is no excuse). It would be a very rare instance... eg an obstructin... like a capsized boat. Its very much like a port starbord cross... Ports burden is always there... it did not suddenly come into play.. In fact the rules limit starbords options so that port has every opportunity to keep clear... ie no hunting by starbord.

I don't see the situation changing with the new rule. Port boats have to start making the hole for starbord to jibe and round as starbord sees fit... if port and starbord are expected to get to the same place and time ...This means that EVEN if the outer most port boat will cross ahead of starbord... He will STILL hve to make the hole for all of the port boats on his hip calling for room. This obligation does not suddently occur as he crosses into the zone.. It's been in place for as long as Starbord has been outside the zone claiming his rights and room.

Now... I don't think that Starbord can obtain rights by jibing onto starbord at the zone... in this instance.... All of the port boats had no expectation that starbord would be there... So... in this case... starbord will not win the protest for room that all of port won't give him.....

You a judge Mark?

No, but he did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.






/I'll get my hat.
/Need to lay off the Halloween candy in the afternoon.

I disagree with the notion that the old rules were foggy on the subject.




I think it's quite clear that the starboard gybe boat has all the rights in the world (but must not sail any further from the mark than needed to sail that course).

Nope.... just looking at my notes from Dave Perry's seminar at the USSA One design meeting a few years ago... He addressed this very question.

Reading the last issue of Sailing world... the big change is to do away with this grey area of your obligation increasing until you hit the 2 boat lenght circle... Now.. no grey area... your obligations begin when the first boat hits the zone of three boat lenghs.

I quote... "an inside bot is entitled to mark-room (new def) then before she arrives at the mark she is entilted to room to sail to the mark" ie. the space she needs in the existing conditions to sail promptly to the mark in a seamanlike way. After she arrives at the mark she is entitled to room to sail he proper course. as she rounds or pass it. ...

so... I don't think the game has changed at all. It just does away with the grey area where "your obligation was increasing as you approached the 2 boat length circle"

In your example... with starbord approaching and having rights all the way... When the outer most and leading port boat hits the 3 boat lenght circle.... they have to make a hole for the port boat on their hip who would foul starbord who is jibing and going around the mark. ...

So. my interpretation.. .. if you come in on starbord... Nobody on port makes the hole... you bail and head up and protest. I think the outer most port boat will take the penalty and not the inner most port boat.

Jake, I'm just telling you what Means told me. Now until you go before a certified judge ( with a protest ) with this situation I suspect you will not be persuaded as well as many others, and I'm too lazy to dig through the ISAF cases to find an example. The post was simply to relay information as it was told to me.

Now I will always give room or do my best to give room and not play shenanigans with the rules because I don't want to spend the night defending my position in the room. With 18.2.e it's just not a slam dunk and if the jury can be convinced...

Same as now; IMO, the difference is now that you, being on STBD, are expected to bail out and protest, whereas before, you EXPECTED to get water and so would pile in, and if there were collisions with other boats and/or the mark, you, the stbd boat would EXPECT to be exonnerated.

The rule now puts the burden on the stbd boat to decide they will not be given water, to then bail out and then protest.

IMO, it has been worded in this way to reduce pileups and increase protests as the stbd boat has to go to the room to get justice whereas in the past the stbd boat would just go for a gap that was not really there and expect it to appear!

I can see there being some nasty protests with raft-ups in light wind....

That my friend is an ISAF rule !

Brought to you by the whigs who know things best !

Just like you may be in the olympics or you just as well may not be !

Wouter

Excellent interpetation Scooby... I agree with you...

Remember... the zone is now three boat lenghts as well and perceptutally this could be huge in determining the order of how things will go.

Thanks!

IMO, for cat events the zone should be 4 boat lengths as this will give more time to sort it out!

4 boat lenghts??

Wow... before seeing the new rules... the question of increasing the zone from two to four was overwhelmingly rejected by the PRO's and skippers over here..

Perhaps in this new rules context... the zone will have to be increased from three to four for cats.

We certainly need to get some rules clinics going this winter!

We discussed this in a springtime MHC conference call and by e-mail. We decided in the US to not recommend increasing the zone beyond what the rulebook stipulates in order to remain consistent.

I was talking to one of the IJ's over here a few weeks ago and his view was that more boat lenghts was good for faster boats. Remember 2 BL was defined a LONG time ago when in general boats were going slower. If there is some wind, 2 BL is just a second or 2!

I do not see any reason not to make the zone bigger for fast boats (or smaller of slow ones)!!!

Since last week when I first posted on Tami's thread about this rule change I've had time to read carefully and reflect on this section of rules .... talk to some knowledgable sailors (along w/ a beverage or two to "grease the wheels") and develope an interpitation of these revised rules that I hope is correct. I'm sure if I'm not you Ladies and Gentlemen will inform me of my errors in thought.

I've come to the conclusion that Mark's interpetation is basically correct ..... though I DO disagree w/ the statement "the a stardboard tacker can take ALL the room they need". In this scenerio the actions starboard tack boat is governed/constained by three rules: 18.2b,18.2c and 18.4

Rule 18.2b: Gives/establishes the starboard boat's rights to an "Inside Overlap" over the port tack boats ....

Rule 18.4: Explains the manor in which the starboard tack boat must round the mark ... "by sailing her "proper course" .... which basically states that the starboard tack boat must round the fastest way possible for them ... and the starboard tack boat gets to choose what "they" think that course is, not the port tack boats.

BUT .... Read rule 18.2c very carefully as they have added a line to it.

Rule 18.2c now states: ... that if an boat that has established an inside overlap passes outside the "zone" at any point during the rounding that boat loses their rights to an inside overlap.

So if starboard drives through the "Zone" (let's call it a two boat length for this scenerio) and does not complete her gybe inside that circle ... then that boat has no rights to an "Inside Overlap" .... a port tack boat that is quick in dive inside, establish a NEW inside overlap forcing the (origonal starboard tack boat) now on Port tack to give them room ..... So this incourages the starboard tack boat to complete their rounding quickly "inside" the zone.

Also this would open Starboard up to other issues if they pass outside the "Zone" ... the rules governing the crossing would revert to Port-Starboard and tacking/gybing "To Close" ... if Starboard tries to gybe in front of a Port tack boat it is possible that starboard will not leave room and opportunity for port to "keep clear"

Now we have all been involved in a drifter w/ a pinwheel from hell at the leeward gate .... And I have a voice that can be heard a mile away (no lie), and if I start hailing you from 100yds away ... :Port Tack boat Sail#XXXX I have an inside overlap on you and WILL require "MARK ROOM" ... and let's say I hail you two more times before I arrive .... there BETTER be room because I've given and allowed you "plenty of time to keep clear" ... so you as the port tack boat better get on your other port tack buddies to slide over and make room at the mark!!!!!

And remember it will be the responsibility of the port tack boat to prove that they could not provide mark room ... all the starboard tack boat has to prove is that you didn't ....

I would slide over and slow down alittle letting the starboard tack boat to come in and if they screw the mark rounding up in the least little bit, I'm going to pounce to the inside ...

So while a starboard layline rounding (on a port course) is legal .... you better bring your "A Game" ... because the sharks will eat you alive if you screw it up. It's not a "high percentage" manuver and you will notice that the "Best sailors" try not to do it.

From car racing .... making two 90degree turns is faster then making one 180degree turn as you must stop/turn 180 degrees, re-accelerate from 0 velocity and regain your momentum .... a 90degree turn allows you to maintain some of your velocity and momentum

I apologize for my MISS-INTERPITATIONS last week ... it took me some time to analyze the scenerio to a conclusion that I hope is correct.

And THANKS to Mark Schnieder for the "heated and prolong" 1 1/2 hour conversation/discussion we had over this change in the rules .... (so no Mark, the starboard boat can not take "ALL THE ROOM" they wish but must sail a "Proper Course" and remain inside the Zone to maintain their "Inside Overlap" ... but Yes, with-in those criteria Starboard can do as they wish .... and Port must "Keep Clear" .... )

RACE SMART ...

Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail SAFE
Harry Murphey
H18Mag/#9458, Fleet 54/Div11
P19MX/ #86, CRAC-Open Class

During the 1986 (circa) Hobie 18 Nationals, the course was set in a nor'easter with the leeward mark right off the Quietwater Boardwalk. This configuration led to a port tack railroad, downwind to the leeward mark.

I served on the Protest Committee, and since I was only available after school - teaching hours, I was not on the water. I do recollect that for two days during the event I did not leave the "Room" until 0200 the next day. One Case in particular....

Four boats on port tack, (way overstood)almost overlapped, were attacked by a starboard tacker approx. two hundred yards from the leeward mark. The starboard tack boat persisted to maintain rights by hail. At least two vessels were so damaged as to force retirement. After a long deliberation, involving charter fees and insurance (plus the fact these boats were due at Fort Walton Yacht Club by the next Sunday for the Alter Cup) made the decision a titch complex.

When the starboard tacker found he was "in the wrong," he wanted an explanation. I told him that "he could have gybed inside and been first boat to the mark."

For Funny...A couple families from PYC took their students out of school for the day to watch the racing. They claimed the language at the leeward mark reminded them of a "Gang War."

Starboard Tackers, always be aware!

Aloha,
Bert

How do charter fees effect the protest situation and the rules that apply?