Marstrom sells the Tornado carbon stick for ~$5k. I got mine back when it was $4k. Can't understand what a heavier, less tightly controlled I20 stick should cost $11k. Did anyone approach Marstrom for a design quote?
I've heard that the marstrom name was dropped to the manufacturer by someone who is very influential in the overall rig design.
Also the N20 mast is 2' taller I believe than the Tornado mast.
So, you get 2 extra feet for a mere $5k more?
Seriously, Marstrom can make a mast to any required spec...spar-making is their main busniess. They should be able to make an I20 mast for well under $11k...possbily well under the $5k T-baot sticks since flex tolerances/weight are presumably less strict.
when you compare the price for Tornado masts from marstrom you have to consider that he knew he would be making more than 100 masts in avery short period of time and that he had a vested interest in supplying the class.
If marstrom were to make masts for another class such as the N20 they would have to make new moulds to suit their production methods (approx 40k USD) and then build to the same spec as the old masts which isn't their prefered way. So when you throw in the very low volume of sales projected.... the cost per mast blows out to unreasonable levels.
when you compare the price for Tornado masts from marstrom you have to consider that he knew he would be making more than 100 masts in avery short period of time and that he had a vested interest in supplying the class.
If marstrom were to make masts for another class such as the N20 they would have to make new moulds to suit their production methods (approx 40k USD) and then build to the same spec as the old masts which isn't their prefered way. So when you throw in the very low volume of sales projected.... the cost per mast blows out to unreasonable levels.
Is this speculation or facts after an inquiry/quote? With the cost difference ,it would only take 7 masts to make up the tooling cost.
I'm sure it wouldn't matter now, even if Marstrom, Hall,Guck, etc. masts were dirt cheap. PC opted for the Infusion extrusion and that's the way it'll be rather the N-20 owners like it or not(who asked?). Makes better financial sense for them to use the same extrusions. No stocking worries of separate masts.Better buys on extrusions etc. If the boats will be as fast with the Alu mast as the old carbon one ,think how much faster they'd be with a newer marstrom,hall,guck,whoever mast. If they did turn out, faster everybody would be upgrading just like was done with the rudders ,the tramp, the self tacker,etc.. There's your volume increase. I don't see everybody jumping on the teched down version even if it's the same. That carbon mast(as clunky as it may be) carries a mystique, just about everybody else has aluminum.Yeah, maybe that's vain, but I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one that feels that way. Andrew, Thanks for the input and info as there seems to be a void in that dept. from anybody else in the know.
Todd
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
when you compare the price for Tornado masts from marstrom you have to consider that he knew he would be making more than 100 masts in avery short period of time and that he had a vested interest in supplying the class.
If marstrom were to make masts for another class such as the N20 they would have to make new moulds to suit their production methods (approx 40k USD) and then build to the same spec as the old masts which isn't their prefered way. So when you throw in the very low volume of sales projected.... the cost per mast blows out to unreasonable levels.
Is this speculation or facts after an inquiry/quote? With the cost difference ,it would only take 7 masts to make up the tooling cost.
I'm sure it wouldn't matter now, even if Marstrom, Hall,Guck, etc. masts were dirt cheap. PC opted for the Infusion extrusion and that's the way it'll be rather the N-20 owners like it or not(who asked?). Makes better financial sense for them to use the same extrusions. No stocking worries of separate masts.Better buys on extrusions etc. If the boats will be as fast with the Alu mast as the old carbon one ,think how much faster they'd be with a newer marstrom,hall,guck,whoever mast. If they did turn out, faster everybody would be upgrading just like was done with the rudders ,the tramp, the self tacker,etc.. There's your volume increase. I don't see everybody jumping on the teched down version even if it's the same. That carbon mast(as clunky as it may be) carries a mystique, just about everybody else has aluminum.Yeah, maybe that's vain, but I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one that feels that way. Andrew, Thanks for the input and info as there seems to be a void in that dept. from anybody else in the know.
Todd
Personally, I don't think it's "tech down". The carbon mast on the 20 is a stump. It was designed a loooong time ago before modern mast making methods and fiber orientation and placement were refined. It's way heavier than it needs to be and is very unresponsive to adjustments (that's why "full downhaul" means permanent hand scarring).
F18s across the world, on the other hand, have done an incredible amount of development and alloy research to achieve a super-light and responsive wing section mast for their boats. I've sailed them and the masts are incredible. I'll put a good bit of money down that the "development" on the new sails is largely to make sure the performance isn't increased too much. The F18s I've sailed against with the 20 is outrunning me now in almost every condition...it's not the hulls and the boat weights are the same.
And now I'm just busting your chops...but at a 15% profit on a $10,000 stick, it takes 27 masts to break even. That's probably two years worth of Nacra 20 sales. If they're a more reasonable $7000, it takes 38 masts.
"And now I'm just busting your chops...but at a 15% profit on a $10,000 stick, it takes 27 masts to break even. That's probably two years worth of Nacra 20 sales. If they're a more reasonable $7000, it takes 38 masts."
Not if your getting $11,000 for a $5,000 stick.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
Well it is here we have a never been in the water yet new N-20 with an Alum. Mast and the beat news the sails are not made by E/P (MBYC San Diego) All up that's 14-15 N-20s here. That's all I know so don't ask any questions
I think a drawback to a Hall/Marstrom/etc mast would be durability. In use, I'd expect them to be about as tough as the current carbon stick, however since their masts are not as over built as the old stick, I wouldn't push it as far.
I can say from first hand experience, the M20 mast is LIGHT LIGHT LIGHT, in the realm of A-cat light. To get the mast that light, there is a LOT of material that's been left out compared to the Southern Spars/Omohundro stick. After a break on a M20 mast, while looking for a replacement, Ben Hall told me that masts in this range could be damaged by someone squeezing too hard with a bare hand on the tube! What are you going to do, start putting a sticker on it that says, "caution, don't squeeze"? While handling that mast, I know I have a little pucker factor and am extra careful. It just doesn't feel as robust as the I20 mast.
Now, if you go to Marstrom's website, right now the M20 mast with VAT is listed as 8,415.13 USD after the exchange rate (6,562.5 Euros). That mast is only three feet longer than the I20 mast. I'd not expect making the mast shorter to significantly affect it's price. For reference, the A and T masts are right around 5,100 USD. I think there was some agreement with the T class a/b locking a price in but I don't know for sure. Factor in shipping... another 1k USD?
You can't deny that the I20 sailors are going to want a heavier mast. Now, they may not want the weight, but they will need the strength. We put these boats in places where you really should just stay on the beach. Do you want to be on the water and have such a fragile mast as your partner?
I've seen a broken I20 and M20 mast first hand. Put them side by side and there would be no comparison for wall thickness of the tube. I think that as cool as the Marstrom/Hall/etc option would be, there's some inherent liabilities to Performance unleashing such a delicate mast on the general public.
I always wondered a/b the Riba/Bim 18HT tube. Beef it up...?? Seems like it's tube was a little tougher. Given the options, the Al stick sounds to me like the best option. Regardless though, PC is going to have plenty of people b*tching a/b a mast change, regardless, so they were damned if you do, damned if you don't.
-- flame on -- My turkey needs to be roasted anyway!
I think a drawback to a Hall/Marstrom/etc mast would be durability. In use, I'd expect them to be about as tough as the current carbon stick, however since their masts are not as over built as the old stick, I wouldn't push it as far.
I can say from first hand experience, the M20 mast is LIGHT LIGHT LIGHT, in the realm of A-cat light. To get the mast that light, there is a LOT of material that's been left out compared to the Southern Spars/Omohundro stick. After a break on a M20 mast, while looking for a replacement, Ben Hall told me that masts in this range could be damaged by someone squeezing too hard with a bare hand on the tube! What are you going to do, start putting a sticker on it that says, "caution, don't squeeze"? While handling that mast, I know I have a little pucker factor and am extra careful. It just doesn't feel as robust as the I20 mast.
Now, if you go to Marstrom's website, right now the M20 mast with VAT is listed as 8,415.13 USD after the exchange rate (6,562.5 Euros). That mast is only three feet longer than the I20 mast. I'd not expect making the mast shorter to significantly affect it's price. For reference, the A and T masts are right around 5,100 USD. I think there was some agreement with the T class a/b locking a price in but I don't know for sure. Factor in shipping... another 1k USD?
You can't deny that the I20 sailors are going to want a heavier mast. Now, they may not want the weight, but they will need the strength. We put these boats in places where you really should just stay on the beach. Do you want to be on the water and have such a fragile mast as your partner?
I've seen a broken I20 and M20 mast first hand. Put them side by side and there would be no comparison for wall thickness of the tube. I think that as cool as the Marstrom/Hall/etc option would be, there's some inherent liabilities to Performance unleashing such a delicate mast on the general public.
I always wondered a/b the Riba/Bim 18HT tube. Beef it up...?? Seems like it's tube was a little tougher. Given the options, the Al stick sounds to me like the best option. Regardless though, PC is going to have plenty of people b*tching a/b a mast change, regardless, so they were damned if you do, damned if you don't.
-- flame on -- My turkey needs to be roasted anyway!
I can't tell if you are for or against the aluminum mast.
Jake Kohl
Re: n20 mast
[Re: Jake]
#161539 11/27/0807:55 AM11/27/0807:55 AM
I heard of a recent incident where a M20 pitchpoled and the mast snapped. I was wondering why it would do that, but I guess it's a wall thikness issue? Or was the mast stuck in the mud on the bottom or something else?
The only other incident I've heard of a mast breaking during a pitch pole was an A cat but the mast hit a mark on the way over, which provided the lever to snap it.
I love my alum. wing mast on my Blade, if the new I20 mast is the same section, just longer, it should be an improvement over the shape of the present I20 carbon pole. What the wt. difference will be is unknown, I know an A cat mast weighs about half of what the alum. F16 mast weighs (19lbs. vs 36lbs. or there abouts) Anyone weighed their stock carbon I20 mast?
Blade F16 #777
Re: n20 mast
[Re: Timbo]
#161541 11/27/0808:19 AM11/27/0808:19 AM
I dont know how the I20 masts were built, but Marstrøm masts are built with pre-pregs in autoclaves. If the I20 carbon masts were done with wet layup and different fibers/cloth, you can get both the toughness and light weight if Marstrøm was to build them with his methods. I dont know the design parameters for the M20 mast, but it was probably not designed for toughness.
His deal with the Tornado class was that he was the sole manufacturer for two years (I think it was two years), then anybody could license the design and get moulds.
Re: n20 mast
[Re: Jake]
#161543 11/27/0808:38 AM11/27/0808:38 AM
I can't tell if you are for or against the aluminum mast.
Do I have to be for or against it?? I think they were backed into a corner on the mast issue and made what is probably the best pick of the options available.
Re: n20 mast
[Re: Timbo]
#161544 11/27/0808:42 AM11/27/0808:42 AM
I heard of a recent incident where a M20 pitchpoled and the mast snapped. I was wondering why it would do that, but I guess it's a wall thikness issue? Or was the mast stuck in the mud on the bottom or something else?
If you think a/b the angular velocity of the mast head as it hits the water, it might as well be a solid. If they pitchpolled hard enough, I'd think it plausible that it broke before it got to the bottom. When I saw the thickness on that mast tube, I said, "really, that's all that's made of!!!"
Those things are works of art and designed to the limits of engineering and design stress. I think there is a greater margin for error with the old stick... but that's why it's heavier.
I think there is a greater margin for error with the old stick... but that's why it's heavier.
What is the rationale behind that? Better building materials and process can give the same strength/impact resistance/durability as a heavier mast built with a different process and materials. Do you know how the old I-20 carbon masts were built?
Jake, I agree with Will, there's no need to be for or against. I'm not , I just want to see the boat progress if there is a change. Not be engineered to stay static. I still think it's a convenience for the factory to use the same extrusions, and that's what made the decision. What's a new Infusion mast cost? 'cause isn't that the main issue,$11,000 carbon vs.????? Aluminum.
Who are the 2 testing sailmakers and who got to test it? Anybody know?
Rolf I firmly believe you are right. Check out enclosed pic and see if you can determine how it's built. I would guess just lay-up.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
I think I remember seeing something on Southern's website showing these sticks being made in a split female mold. The layup was done then the molds clamped together and then a bag was inserted and inflated to consolidate the laminate. The wall thickness on the mast is considerably more than some of the more modern masts which would suggest that there are alot of fibers in the 90 degree orientation (hoop) which would make the mast alot tougher without being alot stiffer (these masts are not stiff!).
Personally, I'm ok with the Al. stick provided the price of a new boat drops. Can't grow the fleet when a new boat is $24K. I think we can grow the fleet if a new boat is in the $16-17K range.
I would also really like to see more movement in the sail development, as Jake said, the latest generation of F18's are about as fast as the 20 in all but the lightest breeze.
I think a drawback to a Hall/Marstrom/etc mast would be durability. In use, I'd expect them to be about as tough as the current carbon stick, however since their masts are not as over built as the old stick, I wouldn't push it as far. -- flame on -- My turkey needs to be roasted anyway!
So who said to put an M20 mast on an I20? I suggested getting Marstorm to build an I20 mast...to spec. It should not cost $11k, that was my point.
Marstrom had a 2 year exclusive on the Tornado mast to let Goran make back tooling costs. That has expired, so in theory, others can make a T mast, but is must be to the layup scedule Marstrom came up with...and a royalty is to be paid. That alone kinda makes it tough for a new builder to stepup...I've also heard Marstrom has not released the layup schedule...apparently going against the original agreement with the class.
